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Eventually, life lost its meaning. Colors began to fade. Spiritually dry, David didn't care about anything anymore. Everything he had found pleasurable before t

Eventually, life lost its meaning. Colors began to fade. Spiritually dry, David didn't care about anything anymore. Everything he had found pleasurable before the retreat—hanging out with friends, playing music, drinking—all of that "turned to dirt," he says, "a plate of beautiful food turned to dirt." That's depression. Clinical depression. Fits my experience to a T. The first thing out of my mouth when I finally saw a "real" doctor was "I can't see colors or taste food anymore... I mean, I can tell you its red or blue or tasted like chicken but I can't see or taste it anymore. I know that sounds crazy but..." This article is a little dangerous. Like saying "Running causes heart failure" but omitting "in people with congestive heart failure". Its the heart condition that's the problem, not the running. If you have these symptoms, it wasn't the meditation. You're depressed. See a doctor. They can fix you.

mveety 10y ago
This is kinda something that meditation is supposed to do. It brings problems you have to the fore so that you can see them clearly and fix them. This is something entirely ignored by the new-agey "im super spiritual" types. Meditation isn't something to make you blissful or happy or whatever they're saying it does these days. It's just a tool to see yourself just like a microscope is a tool that allows you to see what's already there.
- baldfat 10y ago
  Depression is a medical diagnosis because it has physical make up that causes people to be depressed. I work and live with people who think depression is a "spiritual" or personal lifestyle problem. I think they are wrong. I lost a sister to cancer when she was 15, my brother to probably suicide when he was 19 and my son died of cancer at 12. I seriously can say I never had a day of depression. I have had a broken heart missing them and feeling the pain. I will cry for them (I did for my son on Sunday while I was unloading groceries (Go figure)) But I have never lost the taste of food nor anything else. I have sorrow but their is a root cause for that. Depression is sorrow with no real root cause (to me). So I usually come out to defend people who are depressed since I feel like I should be the kind of depression but have never experienced it due to the luck of my genetics.
  - ideonexus 10y ago
    This is an incredibly insightful post on depression. As a father of two young children, I am incredibly sorry for your loss and reading about it really struck me... Strangely enough, this thread being about mindfulness meditation, made me halt my instinctive reaction to keep scrolling and confront the emotions I was feeling reading it. My instinct was to keep scrolling and distract my mind with other things, but instead I realize your post confronts me with the terrifying possibility of losing my own children. I think you really illustrate the difference between depression and sadness. Depression I imagine is like experiencing dulled senses, a vapid gray world of numbness. While sorrow and sadness are incredibly vivid emotions that can overpower us, like when they struck you so suddenly unloading groceries. I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing such personal information.
  - goda90 10y ago
    But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help treat depression. Things like exercise, diet, social interaction, exposure to nature and sunlight, and other environmental factors can have an effect on the physical make up of the brain. Now none are cure alls and a lack of any one of them isn't necessarily to blame either, but there is merit to some of these "spiritual" practices that get more of those things in one's life.
    - baldfat 10y ago
      > But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help treat depression (I am the OP on going through loss and sadness and not being depressed.) Yes 100% correct. Just like if you have heart disease or a bad back their are non-medical activities that will help those medical condition. My statement is that their is a medical piece that people discount and/or actually dismiss. A person can't just "fix themselves" and having the medical piece help them with treatment with counseling is a big help. Depression isn't that your sad. Depression Definition: Clinical depression is a mood disorder in which feelings of sadness, loss, anger, or frustration interfere with everyday life for weeks or more. Symptoms of depression include: Low mood or irritable mood most of the time Trouble sleeping or sleeping too much A big change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss Tiredness and lack of energy Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and guilt Difficulty concentrating Slow or fast movements Lack of activity and avoiding usual activities Feeling hopeless or helpless Repeated thoughts of death or suicide Lack of pleasure in activities you usually enjoy, including sex https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm
- mvanvoorden 10y ago
  Exactly, I've been to a Vipassana meditation retreat, and the whole point is to eradicate suffering by eliminating feelings of craving and aversion. To see things as they are, without passing judgment. This creates a clear mind, free from worries and dwelling, and a more stable personality. From this comes happiness, as this is our natural state of mind. People tend to mix up pleasure and happiness and think meditation provides the first. Meditation, just like a psychedelic experience, can show you where you stand in life, and this can be scary. One can find out that they've been doing things wrong all their life, or realize that they are on a destructive path. The changes required might affect their spouse, children, friends or their job, creating a seemingly impossible dilemma, to go on and keep suffering, or to change and hurt others.
  - wefarrell 10y ago
    Meditation can provide pleasure which is why it can be harmful without proper guidance. My last retreat I came to a state of bhanga very early. It felt wonderful but it fucked with my equanimity when it stopped I felt depressed. Guidance helped me get through it. The key difference between meditation and psychedelics is regularity. Psychedelics are more like antibiotics in that they can be used in short bursts to shock the system but meditation should be used continually like a vitamin.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  >> This is kinda something that meditation is supposed to do. Incorrect. Meditation helps to find balance, meaning, sort out things, but in a same way as it won't cure cancer, it won't cure clinical depression, or broken arm.
- suneilp 10y ago
  Whole heartedly agree. In my experience, meditation is a tool, not a cure-all. When I started getting into meditation, yoga, etc. I did a couple of legit non-new agey satsangs which is something like a chanting meditation type thing. Those were very deep, moving experiences, yet I felt extremely depressed after each one. Some things can be too fast and unlock too much at once. This is where regular, consistent, meditation helps quell the unrest and let you tackle things at a sane pace. I had to work through those bouts of heavy depression, but now I can do very spiritual events and benefit from them.
  - magicbeanss 10y ago
    This happened to me as well. I went to a two-hour gong-bath/satsang, and was nearly suicidal by the end. To be honest I'm relieved that this isn't unique to me.
- eternalban 10y ago
  In Sufism (among other paths) the aspirants are explicitly and repeatedly warned regarding the "dangers" of unsupervised development. > it's just a tool Tools are a means. > to see what's already there That is also a means. (Unless one is merely curious.) > blissful or happy To arrive at-rest/contenment with Reality. At which point the distinction between "happy"/"unhappy" is understood to be nil.
ghgfhgfhn 10y ago
Yes, but with a small twist on what you are saying: Depression lies at the intersection of the external world and the internal. It's influenced both by it's contact with the external world and by the content of our thoughts. It can be caused both by external factors and our internal mental life.
freshhawk 10y ago
Yeah, I thought the same thing, I know that feeling. And combined with the statements from this poor guy about not being able to block out intrusive thoughts ... people with clinical depression or schizophrenia need to be careful not to practice dissociating instead of meditating. Especially beginners who may think the point is to "keep pushing thoughts away and think of nothing". Mindfulness meditation is pretty different, and it's the one most of the promising research is concerned with. That said, I like more dissociative types of meditation as well, it can be fun to try and get calm and focused enough to approach no thoughts at all. It taught me how to cure my insomnia for one, now I can stop that narrating train of thought that would often keep me awake and fall asleep basically whenever I want. Also they seem to be freely mixing facts about research on mindfulness meditation with anecdotes about all different kinds of meditation. That's nonsense, there is no reason to assume the long term effects are similar.
- neverminder 10y ago
  > Especially beginners who may think the point is to "keep pushing thoughts away and think of nothing" So if meditation is not thinking about nothing, how is it different from just sitting with your eyes closed? If there's a physical impact of meditation then surely there has to be a feasible technical explanation of the process?
  - catawbasam 10y ago
    There are many observable phenomena for which we lack a complete technical explanation.
  - jschwartzi 10y ago
    My understanding is that you're supposed to let things come, but to note their happening in your mind's voice. I start by noting each breath, then as my awareness of it fades in and out I note people, noises, feelings, and thoughts.
  - gdubs 10y ago
    In my humble opinion / understanding, mindfulness is about reaching a state where you observe what's happening around you without judgment. When you begin actively pushing thoughts away, you're once again engaging the ego.
amelius 10y ago
> See a doctor. They can fix you. Yes see a doctor. However, I feel that doctors often take a sledgehammer approach to mental illness, prescribing SSRIs and/or MAOIs whenever they hear the word "depression" or "anxiety". I'm not a MD, but after reading a little about the topic, it seems that a much better approach is to see what could be the cause of the deficiency in certain neurotransmitters. The reason could be that some of the enzymes involved in the process of producing them are defective due to genetic mutations. Certain tests (such as provided by 23andme) could reveal these defects, and could in theory provide much better treatment options. In many cases this could even start with taking certain dietary supplements, which help the body create the neurotransmitters. Such an approach seems so much more sensible than just "drowning" the brain in neurotransmitters, which is basically what SSRIs and MAOIs do. However, I have yet to see a doctor that knows anything about metabolic pathways and such.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- _98fj 10y ago
  Look for someone who works with a lab that does neurotransmitter testing. If you're not psychotic, but plainly depressed, the question is basically if you need your serotonine or your dopamine/noradrenaline boosted. A blood test can tell you that. Other than that: . Go outside every single morning. A study in a german hospital showed that 20 minutes of daily exposure to daylight can reduce meds by 30%. . Go running for 15 minutes every single day. I say 15 minutes because it's supposed to become an easy "no-brainer" ritual. . Keep a diary in which, every single day, you make a list about strictly only the positive things that happened that day.
  - daveguy 10y ago
    This is good advice for supplemental improvement if you are already getting professional help. I just wanted to add. If these things don't work, or you are feeling suicidal, or haven't talked to anyone -- please talk to your doctor. The same treatments will not work for everyone and it is not your fault if a regimen doesn't help or you can't stick with it. Even 15 minute no brainers are difficult when you are depressed. Also, be honest about your symptoms. Anxiety may be easier to talk to your doctor about, but you can wind up prescribed addictive narcotics that will hurt rather than help.
drzaiusapelord 10y ago
Arguably, traditions with "metta" meditation treat this issue by enforcing the connection between people. Isolated meditators who make progress too quickly can disconnect from people and without some form of metta or some guide from an experience teacher they may find themselves in a tricky spot. Some people just advance too quickly into a more equanimous state than others. That's not depression, its progress and what many seek out when learning meditation or when they follow a spiritual path. You can't act surprised when you achieve an equanimous mind and you aren't interested in the things you were before. I'm a bit like this. I don't crave bad TV shows, hollywood junk, conflict, drama, money, trying to be seen a very smart/successful, etc like I used to. I certainly still fail at this, but there's probably a practical limit here considering my lifestyle. I'm not depressed, its just I quickly outgrew what those in my peer group valued and that has left me with a social hole in my life. I just deal with it. I absolutely do not want to go back to how I was, even if the previous me was "more fun." I'm a very different person than I was pre-meditation/pre-whatever. I don't see that as a problem. I think its dangerous to just dismiss everything you don't understand as mental illness. Not too long ago we were doing this with the gay community, non-neurotypicals, and those from cultures with different values. Its also crazy that Western culture can call anyone not "having fun" all the time depressed. A more quiet and contemplative life shouldn't be seen as some horrible pathological condition. In a perfect world, people like that should be valued, not dismissed, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.

mveety 10y ago

This is kinda something that meditation is supposed to do. It brings problems you have to the fore so that you can see them clearly and fix them. This is something entirely ignored by the new-agey "im super spiritual" types. Meditation isn't something to make you blissful or happy or whatever they're saying it does these days. It's just a tool to see yourself just like a microscope is a tool that allows you to see what's already there.

baldfat 10y ago
Depression is a medical diagnosis because it has physical make up that causes people to be depressed. I work and live with people who think depression is a "spiritual" or personal lifestyle problem. I think they are wrong. I lost a sister to cancer when she was 15, my brother to probably suicide when he was 19 and my son died of cancer at 12. I seriously can say I never had a day of depression. I have had a broken heart missing them and feeling the pain. I will cry for them (I did for my son on Sunday while I was unloading groceries (Go figure)) But I have never lost the taste of food nor anything else. I have sorrow but their is a root cause for that. Depression is sorrow with no real root cause (to me). So I usually come out to defend people who are depressed since I feel like I should be the kind of depression but have never experienced it due to the luck of my genetics.
- ideonexus 10y ago
  This is an incredibly insightful post on depression. As a father of two young children, I am incredibly sorry for your loss and reading about it really struck me... Strangely enough, this thread being about mindfulness meditation, made me halt my instinctive reaction to keep scrolling and confront the emotions I was feeling reading it. My instinct was to keep scrolling and distract my mind with other things, but instead I realize your post confronts me with the terrifying possibility of losing my own children. I think you really illustrate the difference between depression and sadness. Depression I imagine is like experiencing dulled senses, a vapid gray world of numbness. While sorrow and sadness are incredibly vivid emotions that can overpower us, like when they struck you so suddenly unloading groceries. I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing such personal information.
- goda90 10y ago
  But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help treat depression. Things like exercise, diet, social interaction, exposure to nature and sunlight, and other environmental factors can have an effect on the physical make up of the brain. Now none are cure alls and a lack of any one of them isn't necessarily to blame either, but there is merit to some of these "spiritual" practices that get more of those things in one's life.
  - baldfat 10y ago
    > But, there are lifestyle and "spiritual" things that can be done to help treat depression (I am the OP on going through loss and sadness and not being depressed.) Yes 100% correct. Just like if you have heart disease or a bad back their are non-medical activities that will help those medical condition. My statement is that their is a medical piece that people discount and/or actually dismiss. A person can't just "fix themselves" and having the medical piece help them with treatment with counseling is a big help. Depression isn't that your sad. Depression Definition: Clinical depression is a mood disorder in which feelings of sadness, loss, anger, or frustration interfere with everyday life for weeks or more. Symptoms of depression include: Low mood or irritable mood most of the time Trouble sleeping or sleeping too much A big change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss Tiredness and lack of energy Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and guilt Difficulty concentrating Slow or fast movements Lack of activity and avoiding usual activities Feeling hopeless or helpless Repeated thoughts of death or suicide Lack of pleasure in activities you usually enjoy, including sex https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003213.htm
mvanvoorden 10y ago
Exactly, I've been to a Vipassana meditation retreat, and the whole point is to eradicate suffering by eliminating feelings of craving and aversion. To see things as they are, without passing judgment. This creates a clear mind, free from worries and dwelling, and a more stable personality. From this comes happiness, as this is our natural state of mind. People tend to mix up pleasure and happiness and think meditation provides the first. Meditation, just like a psychedelic experience, can show you where you stand in life, and this can be scary. One can find out that they've been doing things wrong all their life, or realize that they are on a destructive path. The changes required might affect their spouse, children, friends or their job, creating a seemingly impossible dilemma, to go on and keep suffering, or to change and hurt others.
- wefarrell 10y ago
  Meditation can provide pleasure which is why it can be harmful without proper guidance. My last retreat I came to a state of bhanga very early. It felt wonderful but it fucked with my equanimity when it stopped I felt depressed. Guidance helped me get through it. The key difference between meditation and psychedelics is regularity. Psychedelics are more like antibiotics in that they can be used in short bursts to shock the system but meditation should be used continually like a vitamin.
saiya-jin 10y ago
>> This is kinda something that meditation is supposed to do. Incorrect. Meditation helps to find balance, meaning, sort out things, but in a same way as it won't cure cancer, it won't cure clinical depression, or broken arm.
suneilp 10y ago
Whole heartedly agree. In my experience, meditation is a tool, not a cure-all. When I started getting into meditation, yoga, etc. I did a couple of legit non-new agey satsangs which is something like a chanting meditation type thing. Those were very deep, moving experiences, yet I felt extremely depressed after each one. Some things can be too fast and unlock too much at once. This is where regular, consistent, meditation helps quell the unrest and let you tackle things at a sane pace. I had to work through those bouts of heavy depression, but now I can do very spiritual events and benefit from them.
- magicbeanss 10y ago
  This happened to me as well. I went to a two-hour gong-bath/satsang, and was nearly suicidal by the end. To be honest I'm relieved that this isn't unique to me.
eternalban 10y ago
In Sufism (among other paths) the aspirants are explicitly and repeatedly warned regarding the "dangers" of unsupervised development. > it's just a tool Tools are a means. > to see what's already there That is also a means. (Unless one is merely curious.) > blissful or happy To arrive at-rest/contenment with Reality. At which point the distinction between "happy"/"unhappy" is understood to be nil.

ghgfhgfhn 10y ago

Yes, but with a small twist on what you are saying: Depression lies at the intersection of the external world and the internal. It's influenced both by it's contact with the external world and by the content of our thoughts. It can be caused both by external factors and our internal mental life.

freshhawk 10y ago

Yeah, I thought the same thing, I know that feeling. And combined with the statements from this poor guy about not being able to block out intrusive thoughts ... people with clinical depression or schizophrenia need to be careful not to practice dissociating instead of meditating. Especially beginners who may think the point is to "keep pushing thoughts away and think of nothing". Mindfulness meditation is pretty different, and it's the one most of the promising research is concerned with. That said, I like more dissociative types of meditation as well, it can be fun to try and get calm and focused enough to approach no thoughts at all. It taught me how to cure my insomnia for one, now I can stop that narrating train of thought that would often keep me awake and fall asleep basically whenever I want. Also they seem to be freely mixing facts about research on mindfulness meditation with anecdotes about all different kinds of meditation. That's nonsense, there is no reason to assume the long term effects are similar.

neverminder 10y ago
> Especially beginners who may think the point is to "keep pushing thoughts away and think of nothing" So if meditation is not thinking about nothing, how is it different from just sitting with your eyes closed? If there's a physical impact of meditation then surely there has to be a feasible technical explanation of the process?
- catawbasam 10y ago
  There are many observable phenomena for which we lack a complete technical explanation.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  My understanding is that you're supposed to let things come, but to note their happening in your mind's voice. I start by noting each breath, then as my awareness of it fades in and out I note people, noises, feelings, and thoughts.
- gdubs 10y ago
  In my humble opinion / understanding, mindfulness is about reaching a state where you observe what's happening around you without judgment. When you begin actively pushing thoughts away, you're once again engaging the ego.

amelius 10y ago

> See a doctor. They can fix you. Yes see a doctor. However, I feel that doctors often take a sledgehammer approach to mental illness, prescribing SSRIs and/or MAOIs whenever they hear the word "depression" or "anxiety". I'm not a MD, but after reading a little about the topic, it seems that a much better approach is to see what could be the cause of the deficiency in certain neurotransmitters. The reason could be that some of the enzymes involved in the process of producing them are defective due to genetic mutations. Certain tests (such as provided by 23andme) could reveal these defects, and could in theory provide much better treatment options. In many cases this could even start with taking certain dietary supplements, which help the body create the neurotransmitters. Such an approach seems so much more sensible than just "drowning" the brain in neurotransmitters, which is basically what SSRIs and MAOIs do. However, I have yet to see a doctor that knows anything about metabolic pathways and such.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
_98fj 10y ago
Look for someone who works with a lab that does neurotransmitter testing. If you're not psychotic, but plainly depressed, the question is basically if you need your serotonine or your dopamine/noradrenaline boosted. A blood test can tell you that. Other than that: . Go outside every single morning. A study in a german hospital showed that 20 minutes of daily exposure to daylight can reduce meds by 30%. . Go running for 15 minutes every single day. I say 15 minutes because it's supposed to become an easy "no-brainer" ritual. . Keep a diary in which, every single day, you make a list about strictly only the positive things that happened that day.
- daveguy 10y ago
  This is good advice for supplemental improvement if you are already getting professional help. I just wanted to add. If these things don't work, or you are feeling suicidal, or haven't talked to anyone -- please talk to your doctor. The same treatments will not work for everyone and it is not your fault if a regimen doesn't help or you can't stick with it. Even 15 minute no brainers are difficult when you are depressed. Also, be honest about your symptoms. Anxiety may be easier to talk to your doctor about, but you can wind up prescribed addictive narcotics that will hurt rather than help.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

Arguably, traditions with "metta" meditation treat this issue by enforcing the connection between people. Isolated meditators who make progress too quickly can disconnect from people and without some form of metta or some guide from an experience teacher they may find themselves in a tricky spot. Some people just advance too quickly into a more equanimous state than others. That's not depression, its progress and what many seek out when learning meditation or when they follow a spiritual path. You can't act surprised when you achieve an equanimous mind and you aren't interested in the things you were before. I'm a bit like this. I don't crave bad TV shows, hollywood junk, conflict, drama, money, trying to be seen a very smart/successful, etc like I used to. I certainly still fail at this, but there's probably a practical limit here considering my lifestyle. I'm not depressed, its just I quickly outgrew what those in my peer group valued and that has left me with a social hole in my life. I just deal with it. I absolutely do not want to go back to how I was, even if the previous me was "more fun." I'm a very different person than I was pre-meditation/pre-whatever. I don't see that as a problem. I think its dangerous to just dismiss everything you don't understand as mental illness. Not too long ago we were doing this with the gay community, non-neurotypicals, and those from cultures with different values. Its also crazy that Western culture can call anyone not "having fun" all the time depressed. A more quiet and contemplative life shouldn't be seen as some horrible pathological condition. In a perfect world, people like that should be valued, not dismissed, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.