7 ms·

What the Mark of the Beast Taught Me About the Future of Money

38 points by ben_pr 10y ago

joe_the_user 10y ago
I tend to agree with the article that mobile payments and such don't feel like they provide much value. If there are system allowed people to walk into stores and just take stuff without waiting in line, the time savings would be huge. But the time spent in actually physically swiping a credit card is minimal so even once the glitches are gone, the payoff in convenience is mediocre at best.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Why can't we have this: Mobile phones + barcode scanners + CCTV + object/facial recognition = convenient shopping experience where you can pick up what you need, scan it, and walk out having paid by phone. CCTV algorithms can flag potential shoplifters or shoppers who forgot to scan certain items. If it can be pulled off then it could mean fewer people working checkout and less spending on bags. But, on the other hand, even "automated" checkout isn't terribly convenient: the exciting game of multiple scales slows your scanning process to a crawl compared to the checkout line and they still have people standing over and watching to watch for shoplifting and process alcohol purchases. I worked in a grocery store a while ago and while I understand some needs I still don't get why there hasn't been any real innovation since the adoption of barcode readers. Could anyone please explain why in-store automation is always one step forward two steps back?
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    If you could build the rest of it, scanning could be replaced easily by RFID. I think some packaging already includes RFID.
  - joe_the_user 10y ago
    I suspect such a system would be harder to create than one would think. Face recognition seems like it's always to going to be too glitchy to guarantee the smooth operation of a "pick it and leave" system. My guess is that the smoothest functioning system would involve rfid's or the equivalent which signal that they were close to a given shopper. Prius and other autos already have doors that unlock only when someone is carrying the key-dongle. And clever ways to hack these system are already here too (amplifiers, for example).
  - CaptainZapp 10y ago
    One very good reason for me to never, ever enter into such a scheme is the same why I would never, ever have a loyalty card. To me it's totally unacceptable that my supermarket chain has a line-by-line record of my purchases, which it then happily sells to the highest bidder. Is the few potential minutes saved really worth the fact that your insurer now may have a detailed record about your booze and junk food purchases?
jzymbaluk 10y ago
This is a very fascinating story for me. I remember as a child my ( conservative, christian ) parents having long, serious discussions about credit cards and banking. They were wrestling with the same section of scripture that the writer quoted, Revelations 13:16-17: "It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name." They ended up concluding that there was no way to avoid plastic credit cards, but if technology ever advanced to the point where payments via subcutaneous microchip that they would reject it. I remember thinking how futuristic and far-off that sounded, but now this is a procedure that can be done today. I personally have left a lot of those beliefs behind, but I don't know if I could ever feel comfortable getting a chip implanted in my hand like the writer did.
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  I don't understand why Christians get anxious about applying events in Revelations to the current day. Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it?
  - intopieces 10y ago
    >Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it? There are three main beliefs within Christianity: Some believe that the rapture will occur before the rise of the Antichrist and the events described in Revelation (note the singular). Some believe that Christ will call home the faithful midway through the strife. Some believe that only those who are faithful for the complete event will be called up. I haven't read the book myself in a while, but I do remember being told about these three schools of thought, as it were.
    - Spellman 10y ago
      Yup, there are three schools of thought. Premillenialism, Amillennialism, and Postmillenialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism Most Evangelicals believe in Premillenialism (thank you Left Behind Series) so the grandparent is correct they believe they won't be around for the acts of Revelation. But they are also super paranoid about this stuff and see things like this (and the adoption of stuff like this) as signs that the End Times are coming. Plus, no one really know which will occur, and there's a field of thought that believe by taking the Mark of the Beast you won't be saved anymore (again, thank you Left Behind series) so they are SUPER paranoid.
theandrewbailey 10y ago
Does any one have a guess as to how future-proof these current chips are? Just like other new tech products, I can't imagine that they will be fully compatible with the majority of the payment ecosystem in 10 years.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  I imagine every few years you'll go in for a checkup with your iDoctor.
  - mpclark 10y ago
    It seems to me that implanting a payment chip makes no more sense than tattooing on one's clothing...
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  They are just radio-frequency chips. Unless people start changing the bands NFC and RFID use, it really shouldn't need to be replaced. Maybe if the battery somehow ran out but then I don't have a CompE degree so I can't really speak about the in-depth detail about RFID chips and their power consumption (besides they really don't consume a lot). Maybe to get a chip with more storage (These chips are really tiny storage-wise [last I checked] so not really something you could store a virtual wallet on)
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    I believe that RFID are not battery powered - the signal that pings them is what powers them.
    - madelinecameron 10y ago
      Ah okay, yeah. I knew they were active and passive RFID tags but I think the last time I played with some was almost a decade ago, haha.
MikeNomad 10y ago
Cash is not going away anytime soon for at least a couple of reasons: Trust (Account Overloards say I have 100 USD in my account when I actually have 1,000), and cash is a very handy debt instrument for the issuer. (and) FDR did not take the US off the gold standard, he outlawed private ownership of gold. Nixon took the US off the gold standard in the early 70s.
- hvm 10y ago
  > he outlawed private ownership of gold So if you buy gold in the US, you are actually renting it from the government or something?
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    This was in the past. Gold was made just another commodity from Nixon forwards.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- theandrewbailey 10y ago
  There are innumerable small shops/cafes/restaurants that are cash only. Will banks or governments subsidize or provide free equipment in order to not harm the idolized small business owners and job creators?
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    Nah. They'll champion the market's infallible ability to work it all out.
- slededit 10y ago
  FDR in effect broke the gold standard in two ways: 1) First since gold was illegal to own, Federal notes were effectively no longer redeemable for gold 2) The dollar was inflated from $20.67/oz to $35/oz This meant two things; first the dollar was backed in gold by name only since you couldn't actually take advantage of that fact in any quantity. Second the Government was able to change the dollar/gold ratio at its whim. This breach of trust meant that the dollar was not and would never again be as good as actual gold.
cousin_it 10y ago
Why implants? They are such a hassle to upgrade. I thought we'd skip them entirely and go from wallets to phones to fingerprints. And then to a central AI that can recognize you from a video feed.
- protomyth 10y ago
  Its about the same reason that I don't want Apple to do a TV. The difference in lifetime between the computing component and display are immense. Implants would seem to be as short a lifetime. Credsticks always made more sense.
- madelinecameron 10y ago
  > fingerprints I don't know how many times people need to repeat this: Fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. I am really not a fan of biometrics as identification at all.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Fingerprints are neither usernames nor passwords; fingerprints can be destroyed independently of the user, usernames should not be destroyable as long as the user exists. Fingerprints are more something that is suitable as an optional proxy for a username.
  - shalmanese 10y ago
    And most offline payments have never required passwords, only usernames.
giancarlostoro 10y ago
Fun fact, the mark is on the hand, to the believer of the time of Revelation your whole arm is considered your hand. The letter "YOD" in ancient pictographic Hebrew was the picture of a hand (it's a full arm, but described usually as just a hand), the letter Yod is the tiniest in modern Hebrew.
dicroce 10y ago
Let me begin by saying that I am a Christian. Generally speaking I am a big believer that much of the Bible needs to be interpreted, and in general I don't buy into the idea that it is infallible. That said, I don't think I could get a chip implanted in my right hand for payment purposes! It's just so on the nose with what the scripture actually says.
- ldehaan 10y ago
  let me begin by saying...how do you even? nobody cares what invisible person you believe in and honestly I hope no religious person makes it to the future, so please do hold yourself back.
ezarowny 10y ago
As the article makes quite clear, mobile payments are overrated. However, I have experienced a situation where mobile payments have been better than existing systems. Not too long ago, I discovered some fraudulent transactions on my credit card transaction log. My bank, Chase, immediately issued me a new credit card. Apple Pay updated within less than 15 minutes with the new card while it took a number of days for the new credit card to arrive in the mail.

38 points by ben_pr 10y ago

I tend to agree with the article that mobile payments and such don't feel like they provide much value. If there are system allowed people to walk into stores and just take stuff without waiting in line, the time savings would be huge. But the time spent in actually physically swiping a credit card is minimal so even once the glitches are gone, the payoff in convenience is mediocre at best.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Why can't we have this: Mobile phones + barcode scanners + CCTV + object/facial recognition = convenient shopping experience where you can pick up what you need, scan it, and walk out having paid by phone. CCTV algorithms can flag potential shoplifters or shoppers who forgot to scan certain items. If it can be pulled off then it could mean fewer people working checkout and less spending on bags. But, on the other hand, even "automated" checkout isn't terribly convenient: the exciting game of multiple scales slows your scanning process to a crawl compared to the checkout line and they still have people standing over and watching to watch for shoplifting and process alcohol purchases. I worked in a grocery store a while ago and while I understand some needs I still don't get why there hasn't been any real innovation since the adoption of barcode readers. Could anyone please explain why in-store automation is always one step forward two steps back?
- jessaustin 10y ago
  If you could build the rest of it, scanning could be replaced easily by RFID. I think some packaging already includes RFID.
- joe_the_user 10y ago
  I suspect such a system would be harder to create than one would think. Face recognition seems like it's always to going to be too glitchy to guarantee the smooth operation of a "pick it and leave" system. My guess is that the smoothest functioning system would involve rfid's or the equivalent which signal that they were close to a given shopper. Prius and other autos already have doors that unlock only when someone is carrying the key-dongle. And clever ways to hack these system are already here too (amplifiers, for example).
- CaptainZapp 10y ago
  One very good reason for me to never, ever enter into such a scheme is the same why I would never, ever have a loyalty card. To me it's totally unacceptable that my supermarket chain has a line-by-line record of my purchases, which it then happily sells to the highest bidder. Is the few potential minutes saved really worth the fact that your insurer now may have a detailed record about your booze and junk food purchases?

jzymbaluk 10y ago

This is a very fascinating story for me. I remember as a child my ( conservative, christian ) parents having long, serious discussions about credit cards and banking. They were wrestling with the same section of scripture that the writer quoted, Revelations 13:16-17: "It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name." They ended up concluding that there was no way to avoid plastic credit cards, but if technology ever advanced to the point where payments via subcutaneous microchip that they would reject it. I remember thinking how futuristic and far-off that sounded, but now this is a procedure that can be done today. I personally have left a lot of those beliefs behind, but I don't know if I could ever feel comfortable getting a chip implanted in my hand like the writer did.

theandrewbailey 10y ago
I don't understand why Christians get anxious about applying events in Revelations to the current day. Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it?
- intopieces 10y ago
  >Do they not believe that they aren't going to be here for it? There are three main beliefs within Christianity: Some believe that the rapture will occur before the rise of the Antichrist and the events described in Revelation (note the singular). Some believe that Christ will call home the faithful midway through the strife. Some believe that only those who are faithful for the complete event will be called up. I haven't read the book myself in a while, but I do remember being told about these three schools of thought, as it were.
  - Spellman 10y ago
    Yup, there are three schools of thought. Premillenialism, Amillennialism, and Postmillenialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism Most Evangelicals believe in Premillenialism (thank you Left Behind Series) so the grandparent is correct they believe they won't be around for the acts of Revelation. But they are also super paranoid about this stuff and see things like this (and the adoption of stuff like this) as signs that the End Times are coming. Plus, no one really know which will occur, and there's a field of thought that believe by taking the Mark of the Beast you won't be saved anymore (again, thank you Left Behind series) so they are SUPER paranoid.

theandrewbailey 10y ago

Does any one have a guess as to how future-proof these current chips are? Just like other new tech products, I can't imagine that they will be fully compatible with the majority of the payment ecosystem in 10 years.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
I imagine every few years you'll go in for a checkup with your iDoctor.
- mpclark 10y ago
  It seems to me that implanting a payment chip makes no more sense than tattooing on one's clothing...
madelinecameron 10y ago
They are just radio-frequency chips. Unless people start changing the bands NFC and RFID use, it really shouldn't need to be replaced. Maybe if the battery somehow ran out but then I don't have a CompE degree so I can't really speak about the in-depth detail about RFID chips and their power consumption (besides they really don't consume a lot). Maybe to get a chip with more storage (These chips are really tiny storage-wise [last I checked] so not really something you could store a virtual wallet on)
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  I believe that RFID are not battery powered - the signal that pings them is what powers them.
  - madelinecameron 10y ago
    Ah okay, yeah. I knew they were active and passive RFID tags but I think the last time I played with some was almost a decade ago, haha.

MikeNomad 10y ago

Cash is not going away anytime soon for at least a couple of reasons: Trust (Account Overloards say I have 100 USD in my account when I actually have 1,000), and cash is a very handy debt instrument for the issuer. (and) FDR did not take the US off the gold standard, he outlawed private ownership of gold. Nixon took the US off the gold standard in the early 70s.

hvm 10y ago
> he outlawed private ownership of gold So if you buy gold in the US, you are actually renting it from the government or something?
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  This was in the past. Gold was made just another commodity from Nixon forwards.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
theandrewbailey 10y ago
There are innumerable small shops/cafes/restaurants that are cash only. Will banks or governments subsidize or provide free equipment in order to not harm the idolized small business owners and job creators?
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  Nah. They'll champion the market's infallible ability to work it all out.
slededit 10y ago
FDR in effect broke the gold standard in two ways: 1) First since gold was illegal to own, Federal notes were effectively no longer redeemable for gold 2) The dollar was inflated from $20.67/oz to $35/oz This meant two things; first the dollar was backed in gold by name only since you couldn't actually take advantage of that fact in any quantity. Second the Government was able to change the dollar/gold ratio at its whim. This breach of trust meant that the dollar was not and would never again be as good as actual gold.

cousin_it 10y ago

Why implants? They are such a hassle to upgrade. I thought we'd skip them entirely and go from wallets to phones to fingerprints. And then to a central AI that can recognize you from a video feed.

protomyth 10y ago
Its about the same reason that I don't want Apple to do a TV. The difference in lifetime between the computing component and display are immense. Implants would seem to be as short a lifetime. Credsticks always made more sense.
madelinecameron 10y ago
> fingerprints I don't know how many times people need to repeat this: Fingerprints are usernames, not passwords. I am really not a fan of biometrics as identification at all.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Fingerprints are neither usernames nor passwords; fingerprints can be destroyed independently of the user, usernames should not be destroyable as long as the user exists. Fingerprints are more something that is suitable as an optional proxy for a username.
- shalmanese 10y ago
  And most offline payments have never required passwords, only usernames.

giancarlostoro 10y ago

Fun fact, the mark is on the hand, to the believer of the time of Revelation your whole arm is considered your hand. The letter "YOD" in ancient pictographic Hebrew was the picture of a hand (it's a full arm, but described usually as just a hand), the letter Yod is the tiniest in modern Hebrew.

dicroce 10y ago

Let me begin by saying that I am a Christian. Generally speaking I am a big believer that much of the Bible needs to be interpreted, and in general I don't buy into the idea that it is infallible. That said, I don't think I could get a chip implanted in my right hand for payment purposes! It's just so on the nose with what the scripture actually says.

ldehaan 10y ago
let me begin by saying...how do you even? nobody cares what invisible person you believe in and honestly I hope no religious person makes it to the future, so please do hold yourself back.

ezarowny 10y ago

As the article makes quite clear, mobile payments are overrated. However, I have experienced a situation where mobile payments have been better than existing systems. Not too long ago, I discovered some fraudulent transactions on my credit card transaction log. My bank, Chase, immediately issued me a new credit card. Apple Pay updated within less than 15 minutes with the new card while it took a number of days for the new credit card to arrive in the mail.