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For the record, this doesn't reflect my personal experience in Japan in any way whatsoever. People here are quite well aware of their history, but they don't un

by nihonde 10y ago

For the record, this doesn't reflect my personal experience in Japan in any way whatsoever. People here are quite well aware of their history, but they don't understand some people's focus on Japan's most recent expansion into China and Korea any more than Americans would understand someone whose sole concern is the eradication of native Americans. This kind of "they're not sorry enough for me" discussion is fruitless, because no nation or ethnicity has a moral high ground to stand on. Edit: I want to add that in my personal experience, there is no place on Earth that is more peaceful and pacifistic than Japan in 2016. Don't pay attention to the government, which simply tows the line for America...I'm talking about the people in the cities and villages. Meanwhile, to my point above, America does nothing but wage wars since WW2. Make of that what you will.

sukilot 10y ago
The peace treaty that ended WWII handed over control of Japan's military to the USA. Japan's peacefulness is a gift from foreigners.
partycoder 10y ago
I don't know how much of it can be attributed to the fact that they are required to be peaceful (as a country) by law.
krapp 10y ago
>Meanwhile, to my point above, America does nothing but wage wars since WW2. Make of that what you will. America is the reason Japan is pacifist. America forced Japan to become pacifist at the point of (quite a few) guns. While it's wonderful that the Japanese people have embraced pacifism culturally, their country's pacifist stance is nonetheless paid for with the obligation of American military violence.
- travmatt 10y ago
  Yea the snideness of that last sentence is a bit much, seeing as its current pacifism was bought with American blood and is secured by the Pax Americana.
  - krapp 10y ago
    Fair enough, I removed the last sentence, but I stand by the snideness nonetheless. If nihonde wants to contrast Japan's pacifism with America's violence, they would do well to remember how much easier it is to remain pacifist when someone else has to take the bullets for you.
    - nihonde 10y ago
      Please elaborate. I'd like to know which of America's wars or conflicts since WWII were fought on Japan's behalf?
      - krapp 10y ago
        None. But AFAIK the US is obligated by treaty to defend Japan against any external military threats, meaning any potential conflicts Japan might have with its neighbors would be fought on Japan's behalf by the US. Japan is ostensibly pacifist because it's "military" isn't Japanese, it's American.
        nihonde 10y ago
        I guarantee you that "Japan is ostensibly pacifist" because the people who live here right now have no interest in war. The only signals of war and conflict here are American. No normal people in Japan are interested in the territorial conflicts with China, or constitutional debates about self-defense, or where to stage American military hardware, except that they would like all of that nonsense to end so that they can get on with their lives. Your 'Pax Americana' is doublespeak on the highest order, as Americans go around the world setting and lighting their own powder kegs. Yesterday, a V-22 Osprey flew low over my house, and while it is a marvelous sight on many levels it is ultimately the only emblem of death and destruction on a landscape of almost unimaginable serenity. My neighborhood is all bamboo swaying in the wind, old people on bicycles running errands, kids playing baseball and catching beetles, some lazy cats and a lazy river...and here comes a fucking V-22 Osprey overhead. Meanwhile, a Marine in Okinawa is accused of killing a young Japanese girl. These things just simply do not happen very often in Japan, so the attention on this murder is intense. Okinawa is a really nice place, and the people there would prefer not to deal with this cyclone of...death and destruction in their midst. It made sense at one time, but it really is not that time anymore. I know that you have a hard time overcoming the urge (programming) to see America as the great liberator of the world, policing the wild streets of lesser, unruly regions that would be lost without Uncle Sam, but...at some point, the big bully protecting the block becomes the only problem that anyone on the block is having.
fatman13gg 10y ago
I bet even during WW2 Japanese civilian life was peaceful too, but that doesn't prevent Japan's brutal invasion into other nations. Your personal experience doesn't matter much. Also I don't think Asians reveal their true thoughts to foreigners easily. Besides what matters is Japanese government's take on the history. If Japanese government continue to deny their wrongs during the war and worship their war criminals in shrine, then it is a major problem to the neighbors.
themodelplumber 10y ago
Yeah, regarding the not sorry enough position, people of the West generally broadcast toward Japan rather than the other way around. Read a book like "Senso," a compilation of letters to a Japanese newspaper by Japanese people sharing their recollections of the war. The sorrow becomes apparent. The shame is not hidden.
avallet 10y ago
I've been living in Japan for a couple years, and this reflects my experience too with regards to most people I've met. However, it's not just the government, but also a powerful and ageing elite which shares these views. Admittedly not people you'll meet everyday, yet they wield obvious political influence. Anecdotally, I hadn't met any such people until yesterday, where I had to attend a rotary international conference for a scholarship I receive from them. The audience was composed of around 700 people, most of them CEOs of local corporations, politicians or otherwise wealthy and connected people. The average age must have been somewhere in the late fifties/early sixties. The invited speaker was Masahiko Fujiwara [1], a mathematician turned essayist, who probably should have stuck to number theory. It was basically an hour and a half of chauvinist propaganda, hailing the past greatness of Japan, the superiority of the Japanese people, and mocking (I quote and translate) "Americans, Europeans and white people" at every turn with racial stereotypes. And the entire audience was laughing and clapping their hands! It's scary to think that these people might well be a representative sample of the ruling Japanese elite. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Fujiwara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Fujiwara
- nihonde 10y ago
  Scary indeed. Those were the same people who dragged Japan into imperialism. I guess waters in Japan run deep, and there have those small-minded people in the ruling class that you find everywhere else, too. I certainly don't see the current government of Japan reflecting the sentiments of normal people in any way whatsoever, but I think a lot of working class people feel like the government exists in a compromised world where influences of powerful nations like America and Russia use Japan as a proxy. Japan is not a passive player in that game, but the game itself doesn't seem to interest the average person. The people I know are just working hard to make ends meet and do a good job, raise a good family, etc.——normal human stuff. I'm not so naive to think that Japanese people aren't capable of being racist assholes, but I would say the prevailing sentiment here is more humility than arrogance or conniving. I'm a white American who married into a Japanese family with a (very) distinguished naval history. My ancestry here is definitely elite, but the money and power are a shadow of what they once were——and that's probably a good thing. There's no room for hubris when you're on the ropes. Everyone just has their focus at the human scale.
zurn 10y ago
> no nation or ethnicity has a moral high ground to stand on There are quite a few old and small countries and ethnic groups that have reasonably good human rights record in the post-Columbus times. See Iceland or the Sami people for example.

by nihonde 10y ago

sukilot 10y ago

The peace treaty that ended WWII handed over control of Japan's military to the USA. Japan's peacefulness is a gift from foreigners.

partycoder 10y ago

I don't know how much of it can be attributed to the fact that they are required to be peaceful (as a country) by law.

krapp 10y ago

>Meanwhile, to my point above, America does nothing but wage wars since WW2. Make of that what you will. America is the reason Japan is pacifist. America forced Japan to become pacifist at the point of (quite a few) guns. While it's wonderful that the Japanese people have embraced pacifism culturally, their country's pacifist stance is nonetheless paid for with the obligation of American military violence.

travmatt 10y ago
Yea the snideness of that last sentence is a bit much, seeing as its current pacifism was bought with American blood and is secured by the Pax Americana.
- krapp 10y ago
  Fair enough, I removed the last sentence, but I stand by the snideness nonetheless. If nihonde wants to contrast Japan's pacifism with America's violence, they would do well to remember how much easier it is to remain pacifist when someone else has to take the bullets for you.
  - nihonde 10y ago
    Please elaborate. I'd like to know which of America's wars or conflicts since WWII were fought on Japan's behalf?
    - krapp 10y ago
      None. But AFAIK the US is obligated by treaty to defend Japan against any external military threats, meaning any potential conflicts Japan might have with its neighbors would be fought on Japan's behalf by the US. Japan is ostensibly pacifist because it's "military" isn't Japanese, it's American.
      - nihonde 10y ago
        I guarantee you that "Japan is ostensibly pacifist" because the people who live here right now have no interest in war. The only signals of war and conflict here are American. No normal people in Japan are interested in the territorial conflicts with China, or constitutional debates about self-defense, or where to stage American military hardware, except that they would like all of that nonsense to end so that they can get on with their lives. Your 'Pax Americana' is doublespeak on the highest order, as Americans go around the world setting and lighting their own powder kegs. Yesterday, a V-22 Osprey flew low over my house, and while it is a marvelous sight on many levels it is ultimately the only emblem of death and destruction on a landscape of almost unimaginable serenity. My neighborhood is all bamboo swaying in the wind, old people on bicycles running errands, kids playing baseball and catching beetles, some lazy cats and a lazy river...and here comes a fucking V-22 Osprey overhead. Meanwhile, a Marine in Okinawa is accused of killing a young Japanese girl. These things just simply do not happen very often in Japan, so the attention on this murder is intense. Okinawa is a really nice place, and the people there would prefer not to deal with this cyclone of...death and destruction in their midst. It made sense at one time, but it really is not that time anymore. I know that you have a hard time overcoming the urge (programming) to see America as the great liberator of the world, policing the wild streets of lesser, unruly regions that would be lost without Uncle Sam, but...at some point, the big bully protecting the block becomes the only problem that anyone on the block is having.

fatman13gg 10y ago

I bet even during WW2 Japanese civilian life was peaceful too, but that doesn't prevent Japan's brutal invasion into other nations. Your personal experience doesn't matter much. Also I don't think Asians reveal their true thoughts to foreigners easily. Besides what matters is Japanese government's take on the history. If Japanese government continue to deny their wrongs during the war and worship their war criminals in shrine, then it is a major problem to the neighbors.

themodelplumber 10y ago

Yeah, regarding the not sorry enough position, people of the West generally broadcast toward Japan rather than the other way around. Read a book like "Senso," a compilation of letters to a Japanese newspaper by Japanese people sharing their recollections of the war. The sorrow becomes apparent. The shame is not hidden.

avallet 10y ago

I've been living in Japan for a couple years, and this reflects my experience too with regards to most people I've met. However, it's not just the government, but also a powerful and ageing elite which shares these views. Admittedly not people you'll meet everyday, yet they wield obvious political influence. Anecdotally, I hadn't met any such people until yesterday, where I had to attend a rotary international conference for a scholarship I receive from them. The audience was composed of around 700 people, most of them CEOs of local corporations, politicians or otherwise wealthy and connected people. The average age must have been somewhere in the late fifties/early sixties. The invited speaker was Masahiko Fujiwara [1], a mathematician turned essayist, who probably should have stuck to number theory. It was basically an hour and a half of chauvinist propaganda, hailing the past greatness of Japan, the superiority of the Japanese people, and mocking (I quote and translate) "Americans, Europeans and white people" at every turn with racial stereotypes. And the entire audience was laughing and clapping their hands! It's scary to think that these people might well be a representative sample of the ruling Japanese elite. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Fujiwara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Fujiwara

nihonde 10y ago
Scary indeed. Those were the same people who dragged Japan into imperialism. I guess waters in Japan run deep, and there have those small-minded people in the ruling class that you find everywhere else, too. I certainly don't see the current government of Japan reflecting the sentiments of normal people in any way whatsoever, but I think a lot of working class people feel like the government exists in a compromised world where influences of powerful nations like America and Russia use Japan as a proxy. Japan is not a passive player in that game, but the game itself doesn't seem to interest the average person. The people I know are just working hard to make ends meet and do a good job, raise a good family, etc.——normal human stuff. I'm not so naive to think that Japanese people aren't capable of being racist assholes, but I would say the prevailing sentiment here is more humility than arrogance or conniving. I'm a white American who married into a Japanese family with a (very) distinguished naval history. My ancestry here is definitely elite, but the money and power are a shadow of what they once were——and that's probably a good thing. There's no room for hubris when you're on the ropes. Everyone just has their focus at the human scale.

zurn 10y ago

> no nation or ethnicity has a moral high ground to stand on There are quite a few old and small countries and ethnic groups that have reasonably good human rights record in the post-Columbus times. See Iceland or the Sami people for example.