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> Subcontracting out work + massive federalism I think you meant massive anti-federalism. If we had a federal procurement system for math and english textbook

> Subcontracting out work + massive federalism I think you meant massive anti-federalism. If we had a federal procurement system for math and english textbooks, after being put out for a nationwide bid, the per-unit cost would be about 10% over the cost of paper and printing. (the 10% premium is the bid adjustment for a women or minority owned business) Now $8 textbooks wouldn't save a lot of money compared to the national education budget, but it would be a good start. And do we really need regional variations in math textbooks?

cmdrfred 10y ago
The only reason I know of for different textbooks for different states is that some states seem to want to push a religious agenda in their education system. I struggle to find any net negatives here except for religious fundamentalists and textbook printers.
- brandonmenc 10y ago
  > The only reason I know of for different textbooks for different states is that some states seem to want to push a religious agenda Until the federal government starts pushing a religious agenda. Then everyone here would want textbooks from, say, California.
- todd8 10y ago
  This can't be the whole story. Consider math books. Publishers have coordinated math curriculums, perhaps a dozen different ones used across the country. I feel that the people picking these books are persuaded by the different book publishers to buy expensive, colorful math books that fundamentally are inferior to simpler, less costly math curriculum/books, like the math program and books used in Singapore (which are in English).
  - LrnByTeach 10y ago
    CommonCore is the Solution to these 20 different MATH text books across USA. 40 States are onborad with CommonCore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative#Adoption_and_implementation_of_Common_Core_State_Standards_by_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_In... This gives the WHOLE Sotry .. How Bill Gates pulled off the swift Common Core revolution https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-bill-gates-pulled-off-the-swift-common-core-revolution/2014/06/07/a830e32e-ec34-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-bill-gates-pulle...
- mason240 10y ago
  The only reason I know of for everyone using the same textbooks nationally is that some people seem to want to push an agenda in their education system, and see that as tool for doing so.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Using the same textbooks nationally has an obvious benefit of entire nation learning the same things. Standardization of the curriculum is not a bad thing.
magicfractal 10y ago
Or let's do it like a bunch of other countries: children have the reaponsability of taking good care of the books and pass them to the next generation at the end of their class. It's a great way of teaching respect for the public good. A yet better way would be to have these books as open-source and anyone is able to print them at their homes/public livrary/etc.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  A classic story in local elections is that books are 20 years old and the system needs a millage to buy new books. If you assume that a student uses ~10 books a year and that they last 10 years, with $200 books you get grade schools spending about $200 per student per year on books. If it's 20 books and 5 years, it's $800 per student per year. So while there is probably an obvious opportunity for grade schools to save money on cheaper books, it's also pretty obvious that it isn't the main component of educational spending at that level (the high price scenario puts it at less than 10%). I think things have gotten worse, but I probably only spent $1500 on books in college (and ~$40,000 on in state tuition). So that's a noticeable fraction, but it wasn't in any way something to worry much over compared to the total costs.
  - Retric 10y ago
    It's not a question of total costs so much as how cheap this would be to fix. The only real issue is text book manufactures like tax software company's have a huge impetus to maintain the current system. Which is who the government wastes so much money outsourcing in the first place. It's all defused pain for personal gain.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      I think the total costs inform how outraged to be. They are probably less than 5%, so if you permanently reduce them by 1/2, you've managed to offset ~1 year of cost inflation. That sort of scenario is not the first thing you address when you look for systematic ways to improve the effectiveness of spending (you of course try do them along the way, but they aren't worth burning much time or political capital on).
Goronmon 10y ago
And do we really need regional variations in math textbooks? Depends on if you trust the federal government to do a better job selecting a textbook than the state you currently live in.
- vitd 10y ago
  Having seen how the Texas board of education works at adding creationist and revisionist junk to science and history text books, I absolutely trust the federal government to do a better job selecting a textbook than most states.
  - bugsbunnyak 10y ago
    If a Rick Santorum or Mike Huckabee presidency would change your opinion on federal control of education, perhaps you should reevaluate the underlying principles.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Realistically it's really whether you expect them to do a better job than major states like California and Texas. Nobody is producing a special Rhode Island edition of a textbook.
- marcosdumay 10y ago
  The federal government does not need to select those books. It can merely create a few options (from the best professionals it can find on the entire federation), and make them available for the federated entities.
sosborn 10y ago
> do we really need regional variations in math textbooks? I think there is value in having our population exposed to a diverse range of textbooks. I can't prove it, but I suspect that a homogenous education system would be detrimental to our economy. One of our national strengths is innovation, which comes partly from having a number of people looking at the same problem in different ways.
- serge2k 10y ago
  For history and social sciences absolutely. For high school level Math, not really. The downside I can see is that you stifle any innovation in teaching methodology.
  - DougN7 10y ago
    The issue would be deciding what was the "best" math book. There are some really crappy ones, at least in my opinion. Someone else would hold those same books up and say they were the best.
fapjacks 10y ago
Right! You're exactly right. You want a great example, look to Texas. They are one of the big reasons we live in this nightmarish dystopian present of $200 textbooks that suck to begin with.
rtpg 10y ago
When I mentioned federalism, it was more about the fact that local and state governments have a lot of control on the education level. Usually meaning a lot of different kinds of books. If we weren't a federal system, the national government would be dictating much more about education than it currently is.

cmdrfred 10y ago

The only reason I know of for different textbooks for different states is that some states seem to want to push a religious agenda in their education system. I struggle to find any net negatives here except for religious fundamentalists and textbook printers.

brandonmenc 10y ago
> The only reason I know of for different textbooks for different states is that some states seem to want to push a religious agenda Until the federal government starts pushing a religious agenda. Then everyone here would want textbooks from, say, California.
todd8 10y ago
This can't be the whole story. Consider math books. Publishers have coordinated math curriculums, perhaps a dozen different ones used across the country. I feel that the people picking these books are persuaded by the different book publishers to buy expensive, colorful math books that fundamentally are inferior to simpler, less costly math curriculum/books, like the math program and books used in Singapore (which are in English).
- LrnByTeach 10y ago
  CommonCore is the Solution to these 20 different MATH text books across USA. 40 States are onborad with CommonCore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative#Adoption_and_implementation_of_Common_Core_State_Standards_by_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_In... This gives the WHOLE Sotry .. How Bill Gates pulled off the swift Common Core revolution https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-bill-gates-pulled-off-the-swift-common-core-revolution/2014/06/07/a830e32e-ec34-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-bill-gates-pulle...
mason240 10y ago
The only reason I know of for everyone using the same textbooks nationally is that some people seem to want to push an agenda in their education system, and see that as tool for doing so.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Using the same textbooks nationally has an obvious benefit of entire nation learning the same things. Standardization of the curriculum is not a bad thing.

magicfractal 10y ago

Or let's do it like a bunch of other countries: children have the reaponsability of taking good care of the books and pass them to the next generation at the end of their class. It's a great way of teaching respect for the public good. A yet better way would be to have these books as open-source and anyone is able to print them at their homes/public livrary/etc.

maxerickson 10y ago
A classic story in local elections is that books are 20 years old and the system needs a millage to buy new books. If you assume that a student uses ~10 books a year and that they last 10 years, with $200 books you get grade schools spending about $200 per student per year on books. If it's 20 books and 5 years, it's $800 per student per year. So while there is probably an obvious opportunity for grade schools to save money on cheaper books, it's also pretty obvious that it isn't the main component of educational spending at that level (the high price scenario puts it at less than 10%). I think things have gotten worse, but I probably only spent $1500 on books in college (and ~$40,000 on in state tuition). So that's a noticeable fraction, but it wasn't in any way something to worry much over compared to the total costs.
- Retric 10y ago
  It's not a question of total costs so much as how cheap this would be to fix. The only real issue is text book manufactures like tax software company's have a huge impetus to maintain the current system. Which is who the government wastes so much money outsourcing in the first place. It's all defused pain for personal gain.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    I think the total costs inform how outraged to be. They are probably less than 5%, so if you permanently reduce them by 1/2, you've managed to offset ~1 year of cost inflation. That sort of scenario is not the first thing you address when you look for systematic ways to improve the effectiveness of spending (you of course try do them along the way, but they aren't worth burning much time or political capital on).

Goronmon 10y ago

And do we really need regional variations in math textbooks? Depends on if you trust the federal government to do a better job selecting a textbook than the state you currently live in.

vitd 10y ago
Having seen how the Texas board of education works at adding creationist and revisionist junk to science and history text books, I absolutely trust the federal government to do a better job selecting a textbook than most states.
- bugsbunnyak 10y ago
  If a Rick Santorum or Mike Huckabee presidency would change your opinion on federal control of education, perhaps you should reevaluate the underlying principles.
emodendroket 10y ago
Realistically it's really whether you expect them to do a better job than major states like California and Texas. Nobody is producing a special Rhode Island edition of a textbook.
marcosdumay 10y ago
The federal government does not need to select those books. It can merely create a few options (from the best professionals it can find on the entire federation), and make them available for the federated entities.

sosborn 10y ago

> do we really need regional variations in math textbooks? I think there is value in having our population exposed to a diverse range of textbooks. I can't prove it, but I suspect that a homogenous education system would be detrimental to our economy. One of our national strengths is innovation, which comes partly from having a number of people looking at the same problem in different ways.

serge2k 10y ago
For history and social sciences absolutely. For high school level Math, not really. The downside I can see is that you stifle any innovation in teaching methodology.
- DougN7 10y ago
  The issue would be deciding what was the "best" math book. There are some really crappy ones, at least in my opinion. Someone else would hold those same books up and say they were the best.

fapjacks 10y ago

Right! You're exactly right. You want a great example, look to Texas. They are one of the big reasons we live in this nightmarish dystopian present of $200 textbooks that suck to begin with.

rtpg 10y ago

When I mentioned federalism, it was more about the fact that local and state governments have a lot of control on the education level. Usually meaning a lot of different kinds of books. If we weren't a federal system, the national government would be dictating much more about education than it currently is.