5 ms·

In my experience, every langauge is broken into two dialectual parts: 1. The formal communications dialect 2. The bedroom + dinner table dialect People who li

In my experience, every langauge is broken into two dialectual parts: 1. The formal communications dialect 2. The bedroom + dinner table dialect People who live in a european contry may notice that the formal dialect of their native langauge is dissapearing, and even, that many new concepts cannot be expressed in their native toung. But that doesn't mean that the bedroom + dinner table aspect of their langauge is going away. Germans don't have tummy aches, neither do Czechs. But both, "compile" their software and both preform a "git commit".

ginko 10y ago
Germans certainly have "Bauchweh"
- 0xffff2 10y ago
  That's exactly the point... German speakers have "Bauchweh" where English speakers have a "tummy ache", but both "compile" their code.
  - germanier 10y ago
    German speakers certainly use the word "kompilieren" which developed independently of the English "compile" a few hundred years ago. For computer programs it is used of course following the English example. They don't have their own word for "commit". Instead they use the English one as a loan word. However, it follows all the regular grammar rules ("Ich habe das gestern committet"). Loan words are nothing new. They are adopted and merged into languages and often they reach a point where people don't notice anymore that they are foreign to the language. Nowadays English is the major source of loan words. Before that it was French, and before that Latin. English is not taking over any more than the other two did.
Typhon 10y ago
It's much more complicated than that, and unless you know french, I doubt you'd guess what a "logiciel" is or an "ordinateur". Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "concept that cannot be expressed" in a language. More often than not when people say a language has "no word for X", they turn out to be wrong, and even when they're right, the concept can be expressed through paraphrase.
- Swizec 10y ago
  There are many concepts in many languages that cannot be expressed in another language with the same connotations and subtext. That's why we have loanwords. Why else would a bouquet not be called "a bunch of flowers". Because a bunch of flowers is something different than a bouquet.
  - hermannj314 10y ago
    We call them floral arrangements in the midwest United States, not "bunch[es] of flowers". We also call them bouquets, nevertheless, I think the English language can handle that one just fine.
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      But a floral arrangement can be of various shapes, laid out in a wreath or across a table right? At least as I've heard it used, bouquet doesn't really refer to a wreath or other designs. Maybe I'm splitting nonexistent hairs.
    - csydas 10y ago
      I think what the above poster was referring to was the cultural connotations that are immediately invoked by a word or phrase that isn't really transmissible to someone not familiar with the language and its culture. The example of "bouquet" was likely to touch on the idea that the literal translation of the word would be more akin to their example of "bunch of flowers". Since the word has now integrated into English, there is an immediate understanding that you're not just referring to a bunch of flowers, but something meant to be aesthetically pleasing and usually to signify an event of some importance. I suppose the English language did handle the word, but it did so by just integrating the word, not by translating it. The response to the parent comment was more to debate that there are a lot of words, concepts, and idioms that may carry an actual translation or similar concept in another, but the translations fail to capture the immediacy of the idea conveyed by the original word or phrase. It's not to say that there is no way to understand or interpret these bits of language unless you're a native speaker, it's that in many cases you lose a lot of the meaning without the cultural context surrounding it. Culture and language are pretty inseparable; it's why transliteration is often frowned upon when doing translation works, and localization is considered important to helping the audience understand without imparting too high of a burden of knowledge of their part. Sometimes this burden of knowledge is simply unavoidable. But the ability of a word or phrase to evoke a specific idea/image/feeling in one language and to not do so in another is not impossible. If you know anyone for whom English is a second language (and has not spent extended time in the US), try to explain why "cut the cheese" is funny in English. They may understand conceptually that there is a rude meaning to the phrase, but I'm willing to bet they'd be more than happy to tell you that they'll cut the cheese in the kitchen.
guard-of-terra 10y ago
But we don't all use "compile" or "git commit" as barewords in our languages, do we? That would be silly and out of place. We use those as stems, over which we add our own orthography, morphology and syntax.
cm2187 10y ago
I see lots of French milleniums writing each others in english on social networks. I don't think because they want to be understood by a foreign audience. Just because english has become the language of the internet, english expressions are becoming a sort of habit.
- zanny 10y ago
  If the Internet pushes English enough to get every digital citizen to learn it, that would be one of the most compelling reasons for its social good. I always hate all the talk about multilingualism as a good thing, when the consequence of language diversity is, one, people are wasting time in their youths learning languages for other peoples benefit, ie, those that want to "preserve" it, when the marginal utility of having excess languages is at best questionable. And two, if you do not know the primary language used for, you know, communicating with other human beings, especially English, your potential economic mobility is catastrophically crippled on a global scale.
  - Typhon 10y ago
    Tu as tout à fait raison. Pourquoi perdrais-je mon temps à apprendre ta langue pour ton bénéfice, c'est une perte de temps total. Merci de m'avoir ouvert les yeux. J'aime bien aussi ta deuxième phrase qui sous-entend qu'on ne peut communiquer avec les autres qu'en anglais. Je me demande comment je faisais pour discuter avec mes parents quand j'étais petit. C'est sans doute de là que vient la tragique incommunicabilité qui a marqué mon enfance.
    - _kyran 10y ago
      Exactement. Quand j'étais plus jeune, je voulais de comprendre et communiquer avec des Francophones. Je ne saisis pas que le majorité des jeunes en France apprennent et utilisent Anglais tout les temps. Donc à le début, c'était très difficile d'avoir un conversation sans les changent à anglais. Maintenant je peux parler juste un peu le Français, mais l'expression quand un francophones réalise que je peux le comprendre est absolument fantastique :) Bravo pour apprendre Anglais. Je souhaite que plus gens ont apprécié la lutte que les locuteurs non natifs ont quand ils apprennent un nouveau langue.

ginko 10y ago

Germans certainly have "Bauchweh"

0xffff2 10y ago
That's exactly the point... German speakers have "Bauchweh" where English speakers have a "tummy ache", but both "compile" their code.
- germanier 10y ago
  German speakers certainly use the word "kompilieren" which developed independently of the English "compile" a few hundred years ago. For computer programs it is used of course following the English example. They don't have their own word for "commit". Instead they use the English one as a loan word. However, it follows all the regular grammar rules ("Ich habe das gestern committet"). Loan words are nothing new. They are adopted and merged into languages and often they reach a point where people don't notice anymore that they are foreign to the language. Nowadays English is the major source of loan words. Before that it was French, and before that Latin. English is not taking over any more than the other two did.

Typhon 10y ago

It's much more complicated than that, and unless you know french, I doubt you'd guess what a "logiciel" is or an "ordinateur". Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "concept that cannot be expressed" in a language. More often than not when people say a language has "no word for X", they turn out to be wrong, and even when they're right, the concept can be expressed through paraphrase.

Swizec 10y ago
There are many concepts in many languages that cannot be expressed in another language with the same connotations and subtext. That's why we have loanwords. Why else would a bouquet not be called "a bunch of flowers". Because a bunch of flowers is something different than a bouquet.
- hermannj314 10y ago
  We call them floral arrangements in the midwest United States, not "bunch[es] of flowers". We also call them bouquets, nevertheless, I think the English language can handle that one just fine.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    But a floral arrangement can be of various shapes, laid out in a wreath or across a table right? At least as I've heard it used, bouquet doesn't really refer to a wreath or other designs. Maybe I'm splitting nonexistent hairs.
  - csydas 10y ago
    I think what the above poster was referring to was the cultural connotations that are immediately invoked by a word or phrase that isn't really transmissible to someone not familiar with the language and its culture. The example of "bouquet" was likely to touch on the idea that the literal translation of the word would be more akin to their example of "bunch of flowers". Since the word has now integrated into English, there is an immediate understanding that you're not just referring to a bunch of flowers, but something meant to be aesthetically pleasing and usually to signify an event of some importance. I suppose the English language did handle the word, but it did so by just integrating the word, not by translating it. The response to the parent comment was more to debate that there are a lot of words, concepts, and idioms that may carry an actual translation or similar concept in another, but the translations fail to capture the immediacy of the idea conveyed by the original word or phrase. It's not to say that there is no way to understand or interpret these bits of language unless you're a native speaker, it's that in many cases you lose a lot of the meaning without the cultural context surrounding it. Culture and language are pretty inseparable; it's why transliteration is often frowned upon when doing translation works, and localization is considered important to helping the audience understand without imparting too high of a burden of knowledge of their part. Sometimes this burden of knowledge is simply unavoidable. But the ability of a word or phrase to evoke a specific idea/image/feeling in one language and to not do so in another is not impossible. If you know anyone for whom English is a second language (and has not spent extended time in the US), try to explain why "cut the cheese" is funny in English. They may understand conceptually that there is a rude meaning to the phrase, but I'm willing to bet they'd be more than happy to tell you that they'll cut the cheese in the kitchen.

guard-of-terra 10y ago

But we don't all use "compile" or "git commit" as barewords in our languages, do we? That would be silly and out of place. We use those as stems, over which we add our own orthography, morphology and syntax.

cm2187 10y ago

I see lots of French milleniums writing each others in english on social networks. I don't think because they want to be understood by a foreign audience. Just because english has become the language of the internet, english expressions are becoming a sort of habit.

zanny 10y ago
If the Internet pushes English enough to get every digital citizen to learn it, that would be one of the most compelling reasons for its social good. I always hate all the talk about multilingualism as a good thing, when the consequence of language diversity is, one, people are wasting time in their youths learning languages for other peoples benefit, ie, those that want to "preserve" it, when the marginal utility of having excess languages is at best questionable. And two, if you do not know the primary language used for, you know, communicating with other human beings, especially English, your potential economic mobility is catastrophically crippled on a global scale.
- Typhon 10y ago
  Tu as tout à fait raison. Pourquoi perdrais-je mon temps à apprendre ta langue pour ton bénéfice, c'est une perte de temps total. Merci de m'avoir ouvert les yeux. J'aime bien aussi ta deuxième phrase qui sous-entend qu'on ne peut communiquer avec les autres qu'en anglais. Je me demande comment je faisais pour discuter avec mes parents quand j'étais petit. C'est sans doute de là que vient la tragique incommunicabilité qui a marqué mon enfance.
  - _kyran 10y ago
    Exactement. Quand j'étais plus jeune, je voulais de comprendre et communiquer avec des Francophones. Je ne saisis pas que le majorité des jeunes en France apprennent et utilisent Anglais tout les temps. Donc à le début, c'était très difficile d'avoir un conversation sans les changent à anglais. Maintenant je peux parler juste un peu le Français, mais l'expression quand un francophones réalise que je peux le comprendre est absolument fantastique :) Bravo pour apprendre Anglais. Je souhaite que plus gens ont apprécié la lutte que les locuteurs non natifs ont quand ils apprennent un nouveau langue.