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The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but wea
by cm3 10y ago
The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions and it's hard to understand how after messing with other places and making it worse for everybody but weapons manufacturers, they're still doing the same thing over and over. Previously it was the fight against Communism, now Islam, I wonder what it will be in 2020. Middle-east, Asia, South America, all are right to be very angry with the CIA, but turn it into a "Burn America" rethoric, which doesn't help their argument. CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own.
- nxzero 10y agoOften wondered what the world would be like if there was an intelligence group that only did good.
- rhizome 10y agoWhat would be the purpose of that agency?
- cm3 10y agoWell, they could start by actually operating on the intel they have, rather than letting people bomb buildings because they have a long-term goal they don't want to be disturbed by revealing a bomb plot.
- 7952 10y agoLike a secret society? The web could create endless opportunities for shadowy groups to emerge.
- benevol 10y agoIf we extrapolate, humans will sooner or later create "true AI". Such an AI system can break free from our control (it will end up manipulating us in the physical space), it should become wiser than humanity as a collective (because it will evolve much faster then us). And in this case, we'd end up having such "an intelligence group that only did good". The problem lies in how we manage to bridge the period between now and "then", because it will be a highly volatile situation, with a very high probability for our extinction.
- viraptor 10y agoYou're assuming that a "true AI" if it existed would care about the continued existence of humanity? Past the point of ability to self-repair and self-fuel, what would be the reason to even care about humanity then beyond self-defence?
- benevol 10y agoYou're right. It wouldn't care more about humanity than the Universe does. And it seems it would even end up not caring about its own self-defence, since this is only a human/animal-based drive, not a "divine" one. And that would lead to the conclusion that AI will only dominate us during certain periods of time, will mainly remain of commercial nature, used as a tool to create/monopolize power further.
- malka 10y agoUltimately it is human that Will define what variable the ai must optimize. Though one Will have to be very wary what he wishes for.
- Retra 10y agoYou're assuming that if "true AI" existed, it would be in total control of all the infrastructure needed to maintain it's own existence.
- viraptor 10y agoNot at first. That's exactly why I wrote "Past the point of ability to self-repair and self-fuel"
- fsloth 10y agoNot feasible. Until we develop an ethical calculus "good" will always be relative. The problem with this is that one cannot infer ethics from logic. Also, human basic psychology is such that more power one has the less scrupulous one becomes. Therefore, either the group would be within a range of totally good in nature and totally feeble in power, or totally corrupt in nature and totally powerfull.
- jdietrich 10y agoI'd settle for an intelligence organisation that followed basic human rights law. Intelligence is dominated by a "the ends justify the means" attitude that permits all sorts of grave injustices.
- TeMPOraL 10y agoThe problem here is humans in general. Intelligence agencies are created to follow orders of politicians, who often have morally dubious agendas - but at some point those agencies can also discover they have enough power they can do whatever they want without much oversight. I too do dream of S.H.I.E.L.D.
- zo1 10y ago>"The problem with this is that one cannot infer ethics from logic." Of course you can. The problem I assume you're encountering is that you're not starting from irreducible basic premises. Thus, you can't logically resolve the already-existing and conflicting inconsistencies. We are bombarded from birth with very illogical and inconsistent rules about how the world works. All of those things implicitly include "ethical" value systems. They're very hard to reconcile logically after the fact, simply because they're contradictory in nature and we have at that point heavily-invested into building mental models to navigate the world.
- _yosefk 10y agoMost of them do, according to their definition of "good."
- nxzero 10y agoI know, it's ironic.
- Zigurd 10y agoIt should be simpler, and easier, than having to do "good." The situation since the creation of the CIA is that it is the armed international branch of money politics. Just getting corporatism out of the CIA and getting its activities aligned with the national interest would be an enormous improvement.
- Udik 10y ago"getting its activities aligned with the national interest" And what about other nations' national interests? Doing your own interest is not renowned as a particularly ethical activity per se, you know. Before assuming that the evil done by an intelligence agency has to do with its failure to work in its nation's interest, you should ask yourself whether your own interests are legitimate and above other people's interests.
- ZenoArrow 10y agoAside from being aware of the damage the CIA has done in the past, it's worth knowing what damage they're doing right now. Here are a few links about CIA/US government activities in Syria: http://youtu.be/jjE7lXLOJd4 http://youtu.be/jjE7lXLOJd4 http://youtu.be/Hc_qNwNuLBo http://youtu.be/Hc_qNwNuLBo http://youtu.be/OQuceU3x2Ww http://youtu.be/OQuceU3x2Ww http://youtu.be/PJLR1LhxiN0 http://youtu.be/PJLR1LhxiN0 http://youtu.be/rLb4vg5p5Zo http://youtu.be/rLb4vg5p5Zo
- benevol 10y agoOsama Bin Laden told the US the reason for his fight (which is the origin of violent movements such as ISIS): American politics/interference in Muslim countries. Do you see the pattern?
- ZenoArrow 10y agoOne thing I find bizarre about 9/11 is that very few people seem to openly question why the World Trade Center was amongst the top targets that day. Perhaps if people looked a little deeper into what the WTO does it might help us make better decisions going forward. In the interest of balance, the situation on 9/11 wasn't completely the fault of the US. Saudi Arabia appears to have been the main driving force behind the attacks. There are a number of reasons the US avoided attacking Saudi Arabia and went into Afghanistan instead, including past political deals and Saudi Arabia being the home of Mecca, the holiest site for Muslims (if you're looking for the quickest way to radicalise Muslims, damaging Mecca would probably be it). I believe the main way for resolving the mess in the Middle East is to reduce our reliance on oil and move to locally controlled sources of energy like renewables. It's the oil money that's fuelling the conflict on both sides, if we cut that out of the equation I'm confident we would find it much easier to work towards peace in the Middle East.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago> It's the oil money that's fuelling the conflict on both sides, if we cut that out of the equation I'm confident we would find it much easier to work towards peace in the Middle East. I agree, though even if the US solved its energy problems today, we (i.e. the entire Western world) need to survive the generation or two of pretty angry Middle-Easterns seeking revenge for their destroyed homes and killed families, as well as our own politicians using that to further their agendas.
- ZenoArrow 10y agoI agree with you too, we will almost certainly be dealing with the blowback from our current activities in the Middle East for many years to come, and like you say certain politicians will try to use that for their own gain (particularly if they have financial links with the military industrial complex). However, reducing our dependence on oil would help reduce the financial incentives for war, as well as taking money out of the hands of those in the region who would buy weapons to fight (assuming that there was a similar move towards decentralised energy production in the Middle East also).
- berntb 10y agoYou need to give good references for that, it sounds like a classic conspiracy theory. When the cold war was going on, it was a different time. A dictator could get better offers from the different sides. (It is not a coincidence that some countries democratized after the cold war. The old leaders could get away without, when NATO needed them more.) For instance, didn't Gadaffi destabilize West Africa? But not with any particular media attention. India/Pakistan destabilized by USA? Get real. Why would USA destabilize Somalia? And China is destabilizing quite a lot by itself, right now. And so on.
- aluhut 10y agoI just wait until they mess with China. This way the economy may put enough pressure to hit it so it hurts. I lost all hope for the general public since Snowden. But just like with all the other agencies in the US, I don't believe they'll be gone fast. They know to much ;)
- aagha 10y agoThing is, even with China's accelerated military spending [0], the US spends over 4x what China spends [1]. 0 - https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/China_Military_Budget_2012.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_China&h=974&w=1001&tbnid=nibbWVum0qrNcM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=165&docid=G3dI9GV70_DkCM&usg=__XikObXVxY0jaz06W5WYzDPQ6oyM=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi73q_2697MAhUI3mMKHepACywQ9QEIIDAA https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedi... 1 - https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=china%20military%20spending https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...
- forgetsusername 10y ago>The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions I recently read Legacy of Ashes[0], which I thought would be a sort of thrilling history of the spy game in America, but turned out to be a chronicle of blunder after blunder by the CIA. Fascinating stuff. Having read that, I'm not naive enough to believe the cause of "most" global instability is due to the CIA; that's giving them far too much credit. [0]http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-History-Tim-Weiner/dp/0307389006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463312640&sr=8-1&keywords=legacy+of+ashes http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-History-Tim-Weiner/dp/030...
- cm3 10y agoOh, they're not alone in it but operate globally and are a repeat offender. It seems that they took over from Britain right after those started the whole two-state/one-state debacle in the middle east. Before that, Britain was the major offender. Like Britain, other offenders like France, Belgium, Spain, and the list goes on, are not as clearly and strongly involved in meddling with other nation's fates anymore. When viewed over a longer time span, one cannot help but notice the same abstract patterns, regardless of who did it. I don't know what has to happen for humanity to evolve in this regard.
- kangar00 10y ago> CIA's policy is probably controlled by someone else, and that's where changes need to be made because I like to think they don't come up with the stuff on their own. Beyond you liking to think that, what evidence do you have that the CIA's policy is controlled by anyone other than the CIA's Deputy Director who commands internal operations, and its Director, who reports to the director of National Intelligence as well as having to answer to Congress and the White House? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency#Organizational_structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency#Or... For the most part, theories of secret groups that control things are false, not counting well-known groups like the Masons, etc. that make secrecy part of their identity. There is plenty of evidence to support that Congress and the White House are lobbied heavily by outside interest, and that's no secret. Combine that with the varied interests and agendas in the involved organizations, human error, incorrect or misinterpreted information, etc. and you have plenty enough reason for things like this to go wrong. If you are an American citizen, and you believe the U.S. government is so wrong and misguided, nothing is typically stopping you from leaving the country or attempting to vote for others that might be able to make some changes, but the fact is that there is an extreme momentum of the country that is simultaneous chaotic and well-intentioned, so no matter who you vote for, things will typically continue on. Well- maybe not if Trump is elected, because the entire country could turn into a sideshow ;) , but this is true for the most part. If you live in another democratic country, vote for leaders that you believe will positively influence the U.S. in one way or another, or you can speak up about it. Belief in some shadowy group is just not helpful, and is a result of the imprint on the psyche from movies, television, and other media sources. There are real groups out there with influence, and real single players with influence, but it's really not that hidden; it's just complex.
- cm3 10y agoNot secret group, I don't believe in stuff. I should have been clearer and say that part of the government likely has a body which controls and influences the policy of the CIA. Sorry for my imprecise wording.
- imglorp 10y agoThere are congressional intelligence oversight committees, who I'd like to think are aware of these things. More likely, there's a little golf club agreement now and then between some corporation or lobbying group and government agencies. For example, if you guys can help us with a little information and maybe a teensy overthrow, we'll give you some better terms on that spy sat you wanted.
- ciphre 10y agoI think to really understand what the CIA is doing today you need to look at its history and how it came about after World War II. Created by Truman as a central office for all of the intelligence to be collected by the multitude of spy agencies the US had, started as a small office. By 1963, Truman wrote an op-ed about how it had become the foreign policy arm of the US with no oversight. Link to op-ed: http://tinyurl.com/hstheus http://tinyurl.com/hstheus Congressional oversight of the CIA didn't begin until the Hughes-Ryan act of 1974. This act slowed down the cloak and dagger activities of the organization but never eliminated them.
- bane 10y ago> The CIA is the reason for most of the unstable regions Perhaps the CIA is thus wildly successful? That may be their primary mission.
- brudgers 10y agoAs a point of order, South Africa under apartheid was eminently stable. It maintained that stability with the violence that wealth affords, e.g. the aligned interests with US political policy makers that led to the sharing of intelligence. That's not to discount the concurrent alignment with racial politics in the US -- domestic intelligence concerned with Dr. King and Malcolm X and the currents that created a George Wallace presidential bid.
- nroets 10y agoTo add to that: Apartheid ended in large part due to economic sanctions by the US (and other governments).
- wdr1 10y agoI would agree the CIA is a reason, but I think it's faulty to call it the reason. There are several factors at play, including European colonialism of the early 20th century, as well as the tendency to split countries in a divided fashion (e.g. India & Pakistan) as countries divested of those interests.
- im3w1l 10y agoCIA was 110% right to oppose "Communist" regimes such as the Soviet's and China's. Stalins Soviet and Mao's China were really fucked up. I don't know the full story of the Latin American ones though.
- aagha 10y agoChina seems to be prepping for the eventuality that it's going to be in the CIA's cross-hairs. See: China Military Spending by year https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/China_Military_Budget_2012.png&imgrefurl=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_China&h=974&w=1001&tbnid=nibbWVum0qrNcM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=165&docid=G3dI9GV70_DkCM&usg=__XikObXVxY0jaz06W5WYzDPQ6oyM=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi73q_2697MAhUI3mMKHepACywQ9QEIIDAA https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://upload.wikimedi... Photos reveal growth of Chinese military bases in South China Sea http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/13/politics/china-military-south-china-sea-report/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/13/politics/china-military-south-...