3 ms·

It's not clear if many of these things are good or bad or if they're any worse than silicon valley. I wouldn't count any of them as serious obstacles for Beijin

by Hondor 10y ago

It's not clear if many of these things are good or bad or if they're any worse than silicon valley. I wouldn't count any of them as serious obstacles for Beijing tech success. Focused on the local market. I often run into SV companies that I'd like to use as a customer but can't because they only serve America. Either because of IP restrictions, money transfer, shipping, or they just haven't figured out other countries yet. Having people in it for the money is a sign that something's really happening. It's not just hobbyists doing it for fun. I'm sure most SV startups are in it for the money too. Nobody really things a pick-up laundry service for rich people is altruistic or fun. Young smart engineers getting management responsibilities. Sounds like every startup with a 25 year old CEO. Lack of good leadership? Maybe they're effectively doing flatter organization structures. That's a cool trend in SV. High cost of living. SV is famous for its wildly inflated house prices but that's not stopping it. Bad internet: Crippling if you're a foreigner and depend on foreign services. Hardly noticeable for locals using Chinese services. American's equally have no access to major Chinese internet services because of the language barrier yet that isolation isn't stopping them. Underhanded business practices. America has patent lawsuits which a big company can use to stomp out pretty much any small software company they want. Everyone's infringing somebody's patent but they mostly survive because they're too small to matter. Long hours and no time for family. SpaceX is famous for that and they're doing pretty well.

argonaut 10y ago
You're rebutting almost all of seanmcdirmid's arguments by essentially saying "it's not a problem because some SV startups/companies do it too." But: 1) You don't become the next Silicon Valley through cargo-cult entrepreneurship. 2) SV is successful in spite of those things, not because of it, because SV is starting from a position of strength and inertia. SV succeeds in spite of its current problems because of the massive self-reinforcing feedback loop and culture it developed decades ago when these things were not issues. When SV was becoming a startup hub, most of what you and seanmcdirmid talked about were not problems. Housing was cheap, software patent lawsuits were not prevalent, many people were hobbyists, and so on.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  what-about-isms are pretty standard rebuttals to any criticism on China these days. I just got used to it :). After the air gets cleaned up housing bubble pops, it could become a really cool place for startups. But those fixes come first; China cannot fix its problems by encouraging tech startups first.
- Hondor 10y ago
  Well yes, I suppose you're right. I think I'm just a bit jaded seeing every positive story about China filled with comments like "they'll fail because they're not doing it like us". There are plenty of ways they're different and most of them probably seem bad. Maybe most of them really are bad, but somehow they're still doing pretty well. It must be a complicated combination of factors. I don't think it's fair to predict failure just because some things are worse. They do have much stronger protectionism provided by the government, which is surely a massive advantage over American companies. They also have a cheaper yet well educated workforce.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    This is how the Chinese press takes criticism: be insecure, claim it is an instruction to do things like the west, be like the west, then handle the criticism with some convenient what-about-isms. Everytime I go and read chinadaily, it's the same technique over and over again, everyday. At anyrate, the topic is inherently comparative (BJ is the only next SV!), and no, it really isn't. Maybe you can just brush it off to "BJ isn't SV because they aren't doing it like SV", but even then, al, the criticisms are valid and, if improved, could make the city much better irrespective of any comparison. I guess then that is also it: they seem to be really good, the pollution hasn't caused an economic implosion yet, people are somehow still alive, and someone is willing to spend 1 million $s on that bland 90 sqm apartment. It's like 2006, my friends are laughing at me because I'm saying real estate is definitely in a bubble to the retort "if it's a bubble why hasn't it popped yet?". The companies are completely protected, yet China keeps wanting more access into our markets, and we give it to them. Truth is, reform is all to China's benefit, while the west benefits greatly from the messed up status quo where China strives to be involved in global high value work but fails, and still derives most of their income from low value production, basically destroying their environment for our benefit.
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
> Focused on the local market. I often run into SV companies that I'd like to use as a customer but can't because they only serve America. Either because of IP restrictions, money transfer, shipping, or they just haven't figured out other countries yet. Most (all?) of the companies to succeed in SV have been successful internationally. How many countries does didi serve vs. Uber, wechat vs. whatsapp, Google vs. Baidu. Startups graduate in China without any global reach, at all. A market of 1.3 billion vs. 6.5 billion. > Having people in it for the money is a sign that something's really happening. It's not just hobbyists doing it for fun. I'm sure most SV startups are in it for the money too. Nobody really things a pick-up laundry service for rich people is altruistic or fun. I guess it's a cultural difference. I can't imagine doing work just for the money. Many in SV love the chase, even the subject, it is their passion at the paycheck is just a bonus. In China, few people have at luxury, just like soccer or basketball players play for country glory, not for fun, so it shouldn't be a surprise that China has yet to grow winning teams. > Young smart engineers getting management responsibilities. Sounds like every startup with a 25 year old CEO. Even that 25 yro CEO can benefit from having a seasoned engineer. In the west, you can go pretty far as an individual contributor...being more valuable to the company than your people manager for example; in China it seems like everyone wants to get into management as soon as possible, that being an IC last 40 is a failure. > Lack of good leadership? Maybe they're effectively doing flatter organization structures. That's a cool trend in SV. Confucian culture loves hierarchy, flat isn't a thing here. > High cost of living. SV is famous for its wildly inflated house prices but that's not stopping it. It didn't start out like that in the 70s. Also, how many Americans or even non-Chinese are looking to buy property in Beijing vs. Chinese looking to buy property in sillicon valley. One is completely insular, the other is crazily international. > Bad internet: Crippling if you're a foreigner and depend on foreign services. Hardly noticeable for locals using Chinese services. American's equally have no access to major Chinese internet services because of the language barrier yet that isolation isn't stopping them. All great until you need to do work, even as a Chinese. Try finding factual information about cancer using Baidu alone. Want to do a search on google scholar? Tough luck, the world is limited to China. > Underhanded business practices. America has patent lawsuits which a big company can use to stomp out pretty much any small software company they want. Everyone's infringing somebody's patent but they mostly survive because they're too small to matter. The courts get to sort it out in the west, in China you might just hire some thugs, or at least some hackers or officials, to teach your competitors a lesson. Rule of law has its benefits as well as drawbacks. > Long hours and no time for family. SpaceX is famous for that and they're doing pretty well. At least it isn't a pure face thing And they have a tangible productivity increase to show for it. In China, it's all about the face.

by Hondor 10y ago

argonaut 10y ago

You're rebutting almost all of seanmcdirmid's arguments by essentially saying "it's not a problem because some SV startups/companies do it too." But: 1) You don't become the next Silicon Valley through cargo-cult entrepreneurship. 2) SV is successful in spite of those things, not because of it, because SV is starting from a position of strength and inertia. SV succeeds in spite of its current problems because of the massive self-reinforcing feedback loop and culture it developed decades ago when these things were not issues. When SV was becoming a startup hub, most of what you and seanmcdirmid talked about were not problems. Housing was cheap, software patent lawsuits were not prevalent, many people were hobbyists, and so on.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago
what-about-isms are pretty standard rebuttals to any criticism on China these days. I just got used to it :). After the air gets cleaned up housing bubble pops, it could become a really cool place for startups. But those fixes come first; China cannot fix its problems by encouraging tech startups first.
Hondor 10y ago
Well yes, I suppose you're right. I think I'm just a bit jaded seeing every positive story about China filled with comments like "they'll fail because they're not doing it like us". There are plenty of ways they're different and most of them probably seem bad. Maybe most of them really are bad, but somehow they're still doing pretty well. It must be a complicated combination of factors. I don't think it's fair to predict failure just because some things are worse. They do have much stronger protectionism provided by the government, which is surely a massive advantage over American companies. They also have a cheaper yet well educated workforce.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  This is how the Chinese press takes criticism: be insecure, claim it is an instruction to do things like the west, be like the west, then handle the criticism with some convenient what-about-isms. Everytime I go and read chinadaily, it's the same technique over and over again, everyday. At anyrate, the topic is inherently comparative (BJ is the only next SV!), and no, it really isn't. Maybe you can just brush it off to "BJ isn't SV because they aren't doing it like SV", but even then, al, the criticisms are valid and, if improved, could make the city much better irrespective of any comparison. I guess then that is also it: they seem to be really good, the pollution hasn't caused an economic implosion yet, people are somehow still alive, and someone is willing to spend 1 million $s on that bland 90 sqm apartment. It's like 2006, my friends are laughing at me because I'm saying real estate is definitely in a bubble to the retort "if it's a bubble why hasn't it popped yet?". The companies are completely protected, yet China keeps wanting more access into our markets, and we give it to them. Truth is, reform is all to China's benefit, while the west benefits greatly from the messed up status quo where China strives to be involved in global high value work but fails, and still derives most of their income from low value production, basically destroying their environment for our benefit.

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

> Focused on the local market. I often run into SV companies that I'd like to use as a customer but can't because they only serve America. Either because of IP restrictions, money transfer, shipping, or they just haven't figured out other countries yet. Most (all?) of the companies to succeed in SV have been successful internationally. How many countries does didi serve vs. Uber, wechat vs. whatsapp, Google vs. Baidu. Startups graduate in China without any global reach, at all. A market of 1.3 billion vs. 6.5 billion. > Having people in it for the money is a sign that something's really happening. It's not just hobbyists doing it for fun. I'm sure most SV startups are in it for the money too. Nobody really things a pick-up laundry service for rich people is altruistic or fun. I guess it's a cultural difference. I can't imagine doing work just for the money. Many in SV love the chase, even the subject, it is their passion at the paycheck is just a bonus. In China, few people have at luxury, just like soccer or basketball players play for country glory, not for fun, so it shouldn't be a surprise that China has yet to grow winning teams. > Young smart engineers getting management responsibilities. Sounds like every startup with a 25 year old CEO. Even that 25 yro CEO can benefit from having a seasoned engineer. In the west, you can go pretty far as an individual contributor...being more valuable to the company than your people manager for example; in China it seems like everyone wants to get into management as soon as possible, that being an IC last 40 is a failure. > Lack of good leadership? Maybe they're effectively doing flatter organization structures. That's a cool trend in SV. Confucian culture loves hierarchy, flat isn't a thing here. > High cost of living. SV is famous for its wildly inflated house prices but that's not stopping it. It didn't start out like that in the 70s. Also, how many Americans or even non-Chinese are looking to buy property in Beijing vs. Chinese looking to buy property in sillicon valley. One is completely insular, the other is crazily international. > Bad internet: Crippling if you're a foreigner and depend on foreign services. Hardly noticeable for locals using Chinese services. American's equally have no access to major Chinese internet services because of the language barrier yet that isolation isn't stopping them. All great until you need to do work, even as a Chinese. Try finding factual information about cancer using Baidu alone. Want to do a search on google scholar? Tough luck, the world is limited to China. > Underhanded business practices. America has patent lawsuits which a big company can use to stomp out pretty much any small software company they want. Everyone's infringing somebody's patent but they mostly survive because they're too small to matter. The courts get to sort it out in the west, in China you might just hire some thugs, or at least some hackers or officials, to teach your competitors a lesson. Rule of law has its benefits as well as drawbacks. > Long hours and no time for family. SpaceX is famous for that and they're doing pretty well. At least it isn't a pure face thing And they have a tangible productivity increase to show for it. In China, it's all about the face.