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So how many languages do you speak? And no, english + some latin language doesn't count as "many". There are many ideas which are impossible to express in engl

So how many languages do you speak? And no, english + some latin language doesn't count as "many". There are many ideas which are impossible to express in english because it's not only lacking the words but the culture itself. Calling for standardization on a language is calling for the death of cultures you do not understand. And while that's not "racist" as it's not about race, it's quite literally xenophobic. You're afraid of something because it's alien to you.

ArtDev 11y ago
English borrows heavily from other languages. For example Hawaiian Pidgin uses many words that don't have a clear English equivalent. This seems like it is a common occurrence in other places. American English will keep evolving thanks to immigrants and cultural progress.
hueving 11y ago
>You're afraid of something because it's alien to you. Ugh, don't make stuff up like this to try to prove some point. This discussion is about getting rid of language barriers and has nothing to do with fear of a language. I want standardized language as well and I wouldn't care if it meant I had to learn a new language. So it's not xenophobic at all.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  "IMHO different languages are equally annoying, useless and impossible to deprecate" Not understanding different cultures, thinking their very existence is "annoying and useless" and thus wanting them gone? Yeah, that's being afraid of something alien. And "afraid" is a nice way to put it. I speak 4 languages fluently and learn more because it's fun, it's beautiful, it teaches you a lot about people and culture and it even improves your understanding of languages you already speak. It's also a wonderful way to immerse yourself into a country you're moving into for the first time. This thread is filled with people who lack that perspective and think their opinion is informed and considerate because "I know I might have to learn a new language and that's fine". Let me remind you how this thread started: "why are we putting up with other languages anyway?". We already have a lingua franca in the western world and it is English. It's as good as it can get. But the replies here, unhappy with that, boil down to "let's make it official and declare every other language as dead, then let's force that onto the non-english-speaking world". I used to think like this, btw. I wondered why we bother with different languages. Why going to another country had such a high artificial barrier of entry. Why we didn't just agree on one and left languages to "hobbyists". But I was 8 years old and didn't know any better. I expect more from HN.
  - hueving 11y ago
    Stop projecting! Just because you used to be afraid of other languages does not mean people cannot criticize the economic and social barriers languages put up. Calling an idea xenophobic because you disagree with it shows a complete lack of objectivity. Would you call the creation of the Euro or even bitcoin xenophobic? They both were designed to eliminate barriers imposed by differences between countries as well.
    - scrollaway 11y ago
      I'm not calling the idea xenophobic. It's misguided but has potential. The reasoning various people are giving for it here is another story however. The lack of attempt to understand what languages have to offer to humanity, and just pass it off as "useless" is extremely xenophobic.
debaserab2 11y ago
> There are many ideas which are impossible to express in english because it's not only lacking the words but the culture itself. This makes me really curious: do you have an example of this or would the explanation of an example in English lose the essence of the explanation?
- e12e 11y ago
  I'm not sure if the main point is that things can't be explained, but rather that a good explanation needs to encompass a (impractically) large section of the culture surrounding the term. Just as you can learn a new culture and language by immersion, that immersion can be approximated by language (one of the reasons why reading books is such a great thing!). I'm not sure if these are examples of things that cannot be translated or explained in a foreign language, but they are a few things that came to mind: You can't really translate Japanese haiku to English, only approximate them (well, some of them). The Samic language (and probably others, at least I'd expect some native American/First Nation languages to have a similar term), has a word for the state between being awake and being asleep/dreaming: adjagas. In Maori, the ideas of boiled food is tightly connected to the physical world, so much so that boiled fish/food is considered anti-magic (or so I've been informed by a linguist). The Norwegian word "koselig"/"å kose seg" is hard to translate to English. It's related to "cozy"[k], but carries a deeper meaning that is deeply connected to Norwegian culture (or so a lot of foreigners seem to think). In martial arts, the concept of distance can be represented by the Japanese term "maai"[m]. Is this really so different from similar concepts from fencing? I'm not sure, but the meaning is certainly deeply connected to the culture and concepts of martial arts. You'll note that I've not listed any English concepts that I see as hard to translate or explain in other languages. This is partly because thanks to Hollywood (and other cultural exports, like books), many ideas from (American) English is already part of many cultures of the world - at least those with which I'm mostly familiar: Norway and Japan. I suppose the custom of asking how someone is doing, while not actually wanting to know how they're doing, could be one such example. [k] http://www.lifeinnorway.net/2015/02/a-visual-guide-to-koselig/ http://www.lifeinnorway.net/2015/02/a-visual-guide-to-koseli... [m] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai
- coldtea 11y ago
alphapapa 11y ago
> And while that's not "racist" as it's not about race, it's quite literally xenophobic. You're afraid of something because it's alien to you. (or (disagrees-with person thing) (disinterested-in person thing) (dislikes person thing)) => t (equal (or (disagrees-with person thing) (disinterested-in person thing) (dislikes person thing)) (afraid-of person thing)) => nil This is the same kind of irrational, manipulative, deceptive talk used to ridicule political opponents. "You dislike x? So you're xphobic." "You disagree with x? So you're an xphobe." "You don't support x? So you're against x rights." It's hollow and transparent, but sadly, many people fall for it.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  So what do you call "wanting the death of cultures alien to you because you don't understand them"? I see you complaining elsewhere in the thread about the use of the term "racist". Yes, I'm with you, it's not racist. I said it was xenophobic in answer to that. People confuse the terms a lot because often enough they can be used interchangeably. But the very etymology of xenophobia is "fear of what is alien". This thread is a very, very clear example of that. You don't like it maybe because you don't see it, or you don't understand how inconsiderate it is to take somebody's language - an essential tool of communication, built over thousands of years with immense and incredibly diverse legacies - call it "useless" and wanting it gone. I would love to discuss the practicality and side effects of "standardizing on a single language". Why it's not that simple. Why it won't have the effects you'd be looking for. Why languages even exist in the first place. But this thread started rotten and got worse - nothing good can come of it anymore.

ArtDev 11y ago

English borrows heavily from other languages. For example Hawaiian Pidgin uses many words that don't have a clear English equivalent. This seems like it is a common occurrence in other places. American English will keep evolving thanks to immigrants and cultural progress.

hueving 11y ago

>You're afraid of something because it's alien to you. Ugh, don't make stuff up like this to try to prove some point. This discussion is about getting rid of language barriers and has nothing to do with fear of a language. I want standardized language as well and I wouldn't care if it meant I had to learn a new language. So it's not xenophobic at all.

scrollaway 11y ago
"IMHO different languages are equally annoying, useless and impossible to deprecate" Not understanding different cultures, thinking their very existence is "annoying and useless" and thus wanting them gone? Yeah, that's being afraid of something alien. And "afraid" is a nice way to put it. I speak 4 languages fluently and learn more because it's fun, it's beautiful, it teaches you a lot about people and culture and it even improves your understanding of languages you already speak. It's also a wonderful way to immerse yourself into a country you're moving into for the first time. This thread is filled with people who lack that perspective and think their opinion is informed and considerate because "I know I might have to learn a new language and that's fine". Let me remind you how this thread started: "why are we putting up with other languages anyway?". We already have a lingua franca in the western world and it is English. It's as good as it can get. But the replies here, unhappy with that, boil down to "let's make it official and declare every other language as dead, then let's force that onto the non-english-speaking world". I used to think like this, btw. I wondered why we bother with different languages. Why going to another country had such a high artificial barrier of entry. Why we didn't just agree on one and left languages to "hobbyists". But I was 8 years old and didn't know any better. I expect more from HN.
- hueving 11y ago
  Stop projecting! Just because you used to be afraid of other languages does not mean people cannot criticize the economic and social barriers languages put up. Calling an idea xenophobic because you disagree with it shows a complete lack of objectivity. Would you call the creation of the Euro or even bitcoin xenophobic? They both were designed to eliminate barriers imposed by differences between countries as well.
  - scrollaway 11y ago
    I'm not calling the idea xenophobic. It's misguided but has potential. The reasoning various people are giving for it here is another story however. The lack of attempt to understand what languages have to offer to humanity, and just pass it off as "useless" is extremely xenophobic.

debaserab2 11y ago

> There are many ideas which are impossible to express in english because it's not only lacking the words but the culture itself. This makes me really curious: do you have an example of this or would the explanation of an example in English lose the essence of the explanation?

e12e 11y ago
I'm not sure if the main point is that things can't be explained, but rather that a good explanation needs to encompass a (impractically) large section of the culture surrounding the term. Just as you can learn a new culture and language by immersion, that immersion can be approximated by language (one of the reasons why reading books is such a great thing!). I'm not sure if these are examples of things that cannot be translated or explained in a foreign language, but they are a few things that came to mind: You can't really translate Japanese haiku to English, only approximate them (well, some of them). The Samic language (and probably others, at least I'd expect some native American/First Nation languages to have a similar term), has a word for the state between being awake and being asleep/dreaming: adjagas. In Maori, the ideas of boiled food is tightly connected to the physical world, so much so that boiled fish/food is considered anti-magic (or so I've been informed by a linguist). The Norwegian word "koselig"/"å kose seg" is hard to translate to English. It's related to "cozy"[k], but carries a deeper meaning that is deeply connected to Norwegian culture (or so a lot of foreigners seem to think). In martial arts, the concept of distance can be represented by the Japanese term "maai"[m]. Is this really so different from similar concepts from fencing? I'm not sure, but the meaning is certainly deeply connected to the culture and concepts of martial arts. You'll note that I've not listed any English concepts that I see as hard to translate or explain in other languages. This is partly because thanks to Hollywood (and other cultural exports, like books), many ideas from (American) English is already part of many cultures of the world - at least those with which I'm mostly familiar: Norway and Japan. I suppose the custom of asking how someone is doing, while not actually wanting to know how they're doing, could be one such example. [k] http://www.lifeinnorway.net/2015/02/a-visual-guide-to-koselig/ http://www.lifeinnorway.net/2015/02/a-visual-guide-to-koseli... [m] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maai
coldtea 11y ago

alphapapa 11y ago

> And while that's not "racist" as it's not about race, it's quite literally xenophobic. You're afraid of something because it's alien to you. (or (disagrees-with person thing) (disinterested-in person thing) (dislikes person thing)) => t (equal (or (disagrees-with person thing) (disinterested-in person thing) (dislikes person thing)) (afraid-of person thing)) => nil This is the same kind of irrational, manipulative, deceptive talk used to ridicule political opponents. "You dislike x? So you're xphobic." "You disagree with x? So you're an xphobe." "You don't support x? So you're against x rights." It's hollow and transparent, but sadly, many people fall for it.

scrollaway 11y ago
So what do you call "wanting the death of cultures alien to you because you don't understand them"? I see you complaining elsewhere in the thread about the use of the term "racist". Yes, I'm with you, it's not racist. I said it was xenophobic in answer to that. People confuse the terms a lot because often enough they can be used interchangeably. But the very etymology of xenophobia is "fear of what is alien". This thread is a very, very clear example of that. You don't like it maybe because you don't see it, or you don't understand how inconsiderate it is to take somebody's language - an essential tool of communication, built over thousands of years with immense and incredibly diverse legacies - call it "useless" and wanting it gone. I would love to discuss the practicality and side effects of "standardizing on a single language". Why it's not that simple. Why it won't have the effects you'd be looking for. Why languages even exist in the first place. But this thread started rotten and got worse - nothing good can come of it anymore.