8 ms·

Estonia – the Skype effect

103 points by tagawa 10y ago

smitherfield 10y ago
Yeah, I'm with the article's author; those delivery bots won't last 5 minutes in most American or European cities once people understand what they are.
- lifeformed 10y ago
  NPCs with treasure inside!
- sccxy 10y ago
  Do you know that there are things full of cash called ATMs? Yeah, some robots will be stolen in the beginning, but they are filled with all kind of sensors & cameras. You'll be caught pretty quickly.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    They're secured to buildings, pretty much immobile, usually have CCTV covering them (in the UK at least) ... but they still get stolen occasionally, eg ripped out the wall using heavy plant (diggers and such).
  - smitherfield 10y ago
    The robots look a lot flimsier than an ATM.
rhodin 10y ago
> Estonia has quite a few disadvantages - a tiny home market, a winter that seems to go on forever (although the weather was lovely for our visit), and poor connections with the rest of Europe. The weather? Sweden and Finland both have longer winters and it has not stopped them. Poor connections? Estonians are everywhere (London, NYC, SF) and their tech companies are all "global first", with investors from around the world and targeting the global market directly.
- uola 10y ago
  Yeah, I think the weather trope is getting old. Winters are fairly mild in the Baltic region and most people would prefer below freezing over rainy and windy anyway. It's not even the winter as such that gets to you, but the darkness. Estonia isn't really comparable to Sweden and Finland though, mostly because of history and size. I want Estonia to become a tech hub, but realistically it's not currently that big of a player.
  - sliverstorm 10y ago
    Perhaps it's a trope because the computer business basically originated in California, which is famed for its good weather.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  I think the disadvantages have more to do with ethnic tensions between Estonians and Russians, I agree that the weather is a silly complaint. Estonia is also pretty impressively modern at least in terms of its information infrastructure. If you're gay, you might want to avoid it though.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    I understand the history behind that tension but is that tension palpable on the street, and the homophobia is that sentiment palpable as well?
    - Aelinsaar 10y ago
      It's palpable if you're in the harder regions, and it's palpable if you're attuned to the local politics. The homophobia is a lot more direct and obvious, but in practice you don't see it much, because you don't see many people making targets of themselves. A lot of what is true about Estonia though, is true about the whole region to an extent. I don't want to seem like I'm calling Estonia out in particular.
      - 10y ago
elorant 10y ago
You know, a winter that lasts forever doesn't sound such a bad thing after all in terms of productivity. I live in Greece and every year when the summer approaches the last thing I want is staying inside and code.
- clamprecht 10y ago
  Maybe, but you'd have to reconcile that with California's good productivity and good weather.
  - lmm 10y ago
    SF specifically is notorious for its mild climate, no? Average high in July (the hottest month) is 23 degrees. Compare that with e.g. 31 for DC or 34 for Athens.
    - gorkemyurt 10y ago
      Well September and October are warmer than July usually.. Yes its never swimming weather but its (almost) year around t-shirt during the day light jacket at night weather. No AC or heater needed year around (heater maybe 10 nights a year)..
      - lmm 10y ago
        To be clear I listed the hottest monthly average high for each of those cities - it was July for SF, August for Athens and I don't remember for DC.
    - sheraz 10y ago
      That's 73, 87, and 93 degrees for the metric impaired...
      - wolfgke 10y ago
        Relevants xkcds: https://xkcd.com/526/ https://xkcd.com/526/ https://xkcd.com/1643/ https://xkcd.com/1643/
bunkydoo 10y ago
Interesting, I think it's a good thing to see people at least trying to avoid the clichés of starting up in silicon valley or NYC. Even the US for that matter, it's only gonna help the world economy if people say "hey, I can make the best of things right here" instead of thinking they NEED to be a US based startup company
- cheez 10y ago
  Having been in a "ho-hum that's nice" environment and a "let's murder the competition" environment, I would say it goes beyond THINKING you NEED to be a US based startup company. The fact of the matter is that your environment defines who you are, as a person. Why would that not matter for your company? Can the environment be replicated somewhere else? Sure, with the right amount of luck. But people who think environment doesn't matter are fooling themselves.
gregdoesit 10y ago
I can completely agree with this article. I've worked at Skype, and now I see many of my ex-colleagues having large impact at other startups and tech companies - some Estonian, some international. Transferwise. Twillio. Pipedrive. Fleep. Just a few ones where ex Estonian Skypers and their network have a huge impact. Twillio and Transferwise are two good international examples who did this and have had excellent results - the Tallin offices producing some of the best engineering outputs globally. Almost every talented Skype engineer I know of has joined either a new startup, or a promising tech company with European offices. And many of them have not moved from Tallin - having these companies open offices here, and hire more locals, who the seniors then mentor and train. It's incredible what effect a single company - Skype - has had to the tech community for all of Estonia.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I am curious is the lingua franca English in the office generally? I find it amusing that Estonia's weather was mentioned here, is the winter in Tallin worse than Stockholm or Berlin? Also poor connections? Is that train only? Certainly Ryan Air flies there no? Are salaries on par with the rest of Europe?
  - jnthn 10y ago
    Yes, in tech it's pretty safe to take English as the lingua franca here. Connections - we do indeed have Ryanair and easyJet but not that many destinations. Tallinn Airport has a good list[1] of what's available directly. Salaries - we at Teleport (with deep Skype roots as well) just launched a salary comparison tool[2] this week, hope it helps to get an overview of salaries but also costs. [1] http://www.tallinn-airport.ee/en/flight-info/destinations/ http://www.tallinn-airport.ee/en/flight-info/destinations/ [2] https://teleport.org/salaries/ https://teleport.org/salaries/
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      Thanks for the links, what's the Visa policy?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
floopidydoopidy 10y ago
And now it's just more spyware for Microsoft.
floopidydoopidy 10y ago
And now they're just spyware for Microsoft.
lucb1e 10y ago
> Estonia has quite a few disadvantages - [...] a winter that seems to go on forever Awesome. In the Netherlands it's currently 23 degrees and it's already too warm. I'm dreading the approach of July.
- sccxy 10y ago
  Temperature is not the problem. Lack of sunlight from October till February is depressing.
  - stevekemp 10y ago
    Agreed. I've never been depressed in my life, then I moved to Finland! Seriously though, my first winter was rough, and despite how obvious it was, despite how much I'd heard about it, it took me a long time to recognize the symptoms of not wanting to do anything, and not being productive. I'm sure now I know what to look for things will be better in the future..
dannylandau 10y ago
Have worked with a few Estonians, and Seasonal Affective Disorder appears to be pretty prominent. One of the developers stopped working all of a sudden, and had to relocate to Thailand to get more sunlight.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I think theres another name for the affliction characterized by a sudden impulse to relocate to a beach in southern Thailand : )
DyslexicAtheist 10y ago
Estonia totally puzzles me. The first time I ever met anyone from there was when I attended a Linux conference in Singapore in 1999. What puzzled me was that there was representatives of many countries businesses of course but the density of Estonian company was totally mind blowing. A country with just about 1.2 mio people and here they are with quite a lot of companies representing their passion for Open Source. Also 4/5 from them were selling infosec products like VPN solutions and firewalls etc. But it shows that there was already something fundamentally right with how open they are in their mind towards adopting technology (e-citizenship etc, ... and the ease it is to open and run a business there) There is no doubt that Skype had a massive impact as a role model to form a strong local entrepreneurial identity and pride. But what I want to say is that Skype was already in the right place to start with.
- glasz 10y ago
  i'll tell you why: they've been one of the first countries in the eu to push digital infrastructure and ftth since around 2000. you'd be astounded what big pile of clusterfuck germany's infrastructure is, by comparison. ftth is far away because deutsche telekom is eager to grab subsidies, squeeze every bit out of copper and customers, and not get out of their bloody way.

103 points by tagawa 10y ago

Yeah, I'm with the article's author; those delivery bots won't last 5 minutes in most American or European cities once people understand what they are.

lifeformed 10y ago
NPCs with treasure inside!
sccxy 10y ago
Do you know that there are things full of cash called ATMs? Yeah, some robots will be stolen in the beginning, but they are filled with all kind of sensors & cameras. You'll be caught pretty quickly.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  They're secured to buildings, pretty much immobile, usually have CCTV covering them (in the UK at least) ... but they still get stolen occasionally, eg ripped out the wall using heavy plant (diggers and such).
- smitherfield 10y ago
  The robots look a lot flimsier than an ATM.

rhodin 10y ago

> Estonia has quite a few disadvantages - a tiny home market, a winter that seems to go on forever (although the weather was lovely for our visit), and poor connections with the rest of Europe. The weather? Sweden and Finland both have longer winters and it has not stopped them. Poor connections? Estonians are everywhere (London, NYC, SF) and their tech companies are all "global first", with investors from around the world and targeting the global market directly.

uola 10y ago
Yeah, I think the weather trope is getting old. Winters are fairly mild in the Baltic region and most people would prefer below freezing over rainy and windy anyway. It's not even the winter as such that gets to you, but the darkness. Estonia isn't really comparable to Sweden and Finland though, mostly because of history and size. I want Estonia to become a tech hub, but realistically it's not currently that big of a player.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  Perhaps it's a trope because the computer business basically originated in California, which is famed for its good weather.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
I think the disadvantages have more to do with ethnic tensions between Estonians and Russians, I agree that the weather is a silly complaint. Estonia is also pretty impressively modern at least in terms of its information infrastructure. If you're gay, you might want to avoid it though.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  I understand the history behind that tension but is that tension palpable on the street, and the homophobia is that sentiment palpable as well?
  - Aelinsaar 10y ago
    It's palpable if you're in the harder regions, and it's palpable if you're attuned to the local politics. The homophobia is a lot more direct and obvious, but in practice you don't see it much, because you don't see many people making targets of themselves. A lot of what is true about Estonia though, is true about the whole region to an extent. I don't want to seem like I'm calling Estonia out in particular.
    - 10y ago

elorant 10y ago

You know, a winter that lasts forever doesn't sound such a bad thing after all in terms of productivity. I live in Greece and every year when the summer approaches the last thing I want is staying inside and code.

clamprecht 10y ago
Maybe, but you'd have to reconcile that with California's good productivity and good weather.
- lmm 10y ago
  SF specifically is notorious for its mild climate, no? Average high in July (the hottest month) is 23 degrees. Compare that with e.g. 31 for DC or 34 for Athens.
  - gorkemyurt 10y ago
    Well September and October are warmer than July usually.. Yes its never swimming weather but its (almost) year around t-shirt during the day light jacket at night weather. No AC or heater needed year around (heater maybe 10 nights a year)..
    - lmm 10y ago
      To be clear I listed the hottest monthly average high for each of those cities - it was July for SF, August for Athens and I don't remember for DC.
  - sheraz 10y ago
    That's 73, 87, and 93 degrees for the metric impaired...
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      Relevants xkcds: https://xkcd.com/526/ https://xkcd.com/526/ https://xkcd.com/1643/ https://xkcd.com/1643/

bunkydoo 10y ago

Interesting, I think it's a good thing to see people at least trying to avoid the clichés of starting up in silicon valley or NYC. Even the US for that matter, it's only gonna help the world economy if people say "hey, I can make the best of things right here" instead of thinking they NEED to be a US based startup company

cheez 10y ago
Having been in a "ho-hum that's nice" environment and a "let's murder the competition" environment, I would say it goes beyond THINKING you NEED to be a US based startup company. The fact of the matter is that your environment defines who you are, as a person. Why would that not matter for your company? Can the environment be replicated somewhere else? Sure, with the right amount of luck. But people who think environment doesn't matter are fooling themselves.

gregdoesit 10y ago

I can completely agree with this article. I've worked at Skype, and now I see many of my ex-colleagues having large impact at other startups and tech companies - some Estonian, some international. Transferwise. Twillio. Pipedrive. Fleep. Just a few ones where ex Estonian Skypers and their network have a huge impact. Twillio and Transferwise are two good international examples who did this and have had excellent results - the Tallin offices producing some of the best engineering outputs globally. Almost every talented Skype engineer I know of has joined either a new startup, or a promising tech company with European offices. And many of them have not moved from Tallin - having these companies open offices here, and hire more locals, who the seniors then mentor and train. It's incredible what effect a single company - Skype - has had to the tech community for all of Estonia.

bogomipz 10y ago
I am curious is the lingua franca English in the office generally? I find it amusing that Estonia's weather was mentioned here, is the winter in Tallin worse than Stockholm or Berlin? Also poor connections? Is that train only? Certainly Ryan Air flies there no? Are salaries on par with the rest of Europe?
- jnthn 10y ago
  Yes, in tech it's pretty safe to take English as the lingua franca here. Connections - we do indeed have Ryanair and easyJet but not that many destinations. Tallinn Airport has a good list[1] of what's available directly. Salaries - we at Teleport (with deep Skype roots as well) just launched a salary comparison tool[2] this week, hope it helps to get an overview of salaries but also costs. [1] http://www.tallinn-airport.ee/en/flight-info/destinations/ http://www.tallinn-airport.ee/en/flight-info/destinations/ [2] https://teleport.org/salaries/ https://teleport.org/salaries/
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    Thanks for the links, what's the Visa policy?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

floopidydoopidy 10y ago

And now it's just more spyware for Microsoft.

floopidydoopidy 10y ago

And now they're just spyware for Microsoft.

lucb1e 10y ago

> Estonia has quite a few disadvantages - [...] a winter that seems to go on forever Awesome. In the Netherlands it's currently 23 degrees and it's already too warm. I'm dreading the approach of July.

sccxy 10y ago
Temperature is not the problem. Lack of sunlight from October till February is depressing.
- stevekemp 10y ago
  Agreed. I've never been depressed in my life, then I moved to Finland! Seriously though, my first winter was rough, and despite how obvious it was, despite how much I'd heard about it, it took me a long time to recognize the symptoms of not wanting to do anything, and not being productive. I'm sure now I know what to look for things will be better in the future..

dannylandau 10y ago

Have worked with a few Estonians, and Seasonal Affective Disorder appears to be pretty prominent. One of the developers stopped working all of a sudden, and had to relocate to Thailand to get more sunlight.

bogomipz 10y ago
I think theres another name for the affliction characterized by a sudden impulse to relocate to a beach in southern Thailand : )

DyslexicAtheist 10y ago

Estonia totally puzzles me. The first time I ever met anyone from there was when I attended a Linux conference in Singapore in 1999. What puzzled me was that there was representatives of many countries businesses of course but the density of Estonian company was totally mind blowing. A country with just about 1.2 mio people and here they are with quite a lot of companies representing their passion for Open Source. Also 4/5 from them were selling infosec products like VPN solutions and firewalls etc. But it shows that there was already something fundamentally right with how open they are in their mind towards adopting technology (e-citizenship etc, ... and the ease it is to open and run a business there) There is no doubt that Skype had a massive impact as a role model to form a strong local entrepreneurial identity and pride. But what I want to say is that Skype was already in the right place to start with.

glasz 10y ago
i'll tell you why: they've been one of the first countries in the eu to push digital infrastructure and ftth since around 2000. you'd be astounded what big pile of clusterfuck germany's infrastructure is, by comparison. ftth is far away because deutsche telekom is eager to grab subsidies, squeeze every bit out of copper and customers, and not get out of their bloody way.