4 ms·

Americans like safety more than they like free markets. You might feel otherwise, but US citizens have made their collective decision.

by guyzero 10y ago

yummyfajitas 10y ago
That's not true at all. As an American, I was never given the option to purchase an "unsafe" cigarette from Eric Garner - he was killed in order to prevent me from having that option.
- randomdata 10y ago
  I believe he is referring to the safety of a stable income, which such protectionism attempts to provide. If someone can come in and try to do a better job, then you are always at risk of losing your revenue stream. If the law prevents competition, then you can feel more secure in having that revenue stream for life.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  The NYC policing of singles is clearly about taxes no matter what else they might say to justify it.
- ank_the_elder 10y ago
  According to wikipedia, Garner was not primarily a cigarette salesman: 1. He had been a horticulturist at the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation, but quit for health reasons. 2. Garner had been arrested by the NYPD thirty times since 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner With thirty arrests, he is best described as a criminal who used to work as horticulturist. Although: "An official said he had been arrested multiple times for allegedly selling unlicensed cigarettes"
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    At least as indicated in the video of his death, none of this is relevant. He didn't assault any police officers when he was killed and he didn't appear to be resisting or committing larceny. Also, you do know that "resisting arrest" just means "the cops don't like this guy", right? (I suppose it's easy for folks who don't interact with the police not to know this.)
    - ank_the_elder 10y ago
      We must have seen different videos, then, as it's very clear from it that he was resisting arrest. Is this the one you were talking about? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8 PS: Can you tell just how biased you are? I'm curious as to how oblivious you are of your own professional shortcomings.
      - yummyfajitas 10y ago
        I just rewatched the video, module the actual killing part. He's having a conversation and pretty animated, waving his arms Italian style, when the police grab him. Almost immediately he's put into a chokehold. Clearly the personal attacks bolster your case.
        ank_the_elder 10y ago
        "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. "Who controls the past," ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. "Reality control," they called it: in Newspeak, "doublethink." (1.3.18)"
  - zeveb 10y ago
    I think it's possible to believe: that Garner was not an ideal person; that the policy he was killed to enforce is wrong; and that his actual killing was wrong.
guyzero 10y ago
And to elaborate on this, wealthy societies "buy" all sorts of things via regulation that can't be directly purchased. Americans "buy" consumer safety by enacting regulations that reduce competition and increase overhead costs. Americans "buy" food safety by having government inspections and paperwork regulations that track supply chains in order to recall contaminated foods more quickly. Americans "buy" clean air and water by enacting pollution controls which raise prices. Americans "buy" fewer highway deaths by having lots of safety regulations on cars and putting up considerable trade barriers to imports (want to import a VW California to California? It's unlikely). Most western countries "buy" the same things. I suspect everyone wants these things but not every country is rich enough to "buy" them. And it's easy to fixate on the costs of these things (and yes, sometimes regulations go too far or the costs outweigh the benefits) and ignore the benefits, which mostly benefit a different set of people than those who bear the direct costs. But in the end all of these things are "bought" by distorting markets via regulation.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  Some people may actually disagree that using the term "buy" or "bought" is accurate here, because they may look at the "transaction" and say that the "cost" is not actually a cost. In some cases it is -- paying for government food inspections costs time and money and so there is at minimum the opportunity cost of what else those resources could have been used for. But some things that people say are "costs" -- hindrances on employment, keeping the number of professionals in a certain field artificially low -- may not be viewed as costs. Some may say it's good to have a throttle on employment in field X, not just because of licensing, but because making it super easy to jump into X is just not desirable for anyone and it's too easy for uncredentialed Xers to rip unsuspecting people off, or something. I personally feel this way about Uber and Lyft services (but my opinion could change when self-driving cars become a part of that service). I'd love it if there were heavy licensing regulations for Uber/Lyft, and for drivers. I genuinely think everyone would be better off, and the "cost" of there not being an extremely liquid market for new drivers is actually not a real cost, that liquid market is more harmful for everyone than it is beneficial. We essentially get two "wins" -- regulated drivers leading to more safety, and regulated drivers leading to slightly slower pipeline of introduction of new drivers.
UK-AL 10y ago
How was this a collective decision? Business leader lobbying politicians is not really collective
- guyzero 10y ago
  yes, clearly the entire population of the US opposes every regulation ever enacted by the government.
  - dyeje 10y ago
    They didn't say it was all or nothing.
zeveb 10y ago
> Americans like safety more than they like free markets. You might feel otherwise, but US citizens have made their collective decision. Yes, but your (or y'all's) collective decision that you prefer safety to freedom shouldn't infringe upon my choice to prefer freedom to safety.
- shanacarp 10y ago
  >Yes, but your (or y'all's) collective decision that you prefer safety to freedom shouldn't infringe upon my choice to prefer freedom to safety. I would also remind you that no classical libertarian(IE: John Locke) would allow you to go kill someone, and would say the state can and should have the power to regulate you to prevent you from doing so. So I would equally assume that in no way shape or form Locke would be ok with you dumping Trichloroethylene willy-nilly. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228569/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228569/ Unless of course you think it is ok to give someone kidney cancer and not tell them? (Dumping tricholorethlyene willy nilly makes a super-fund site. It takes years for cancer clusters to clear out as they get cleaned up. The one in Mountain View related to chip manufacture has only within the past year or so stopped causing cancer clusters en mass. Most of the silicon valley superfund sites come from TCE, and were declared as such around 1988. Though even today the EPA is cautious - people have seen TCE plumes in the Valley that still cause problems http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2015/12/16/discovery-of-toxic-chemical-prompts-changes-in-stanfords-housing-project http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2015/12/16/discovery-of-t... We're close to our 30th year of cleaning this stuff up. It is totally possible, and even probable, that if a pluse/area is massively disturbed, TCE will leach en mass into nearby people causing new cancer clusters, among other issues) I can extend this logic easily to the Food and Drug Act and its amendments - which is why it is terrible to find out that the 5 largest producers of chicken in the US allow people to pee and poop on themselves on the killing floor, because in chicken slaughterhouses, you aren't allowed to have bathroom breaks. http://qz.com/681025/big-poultry-workers-are-literally-peeing-their-pants-so-that-americans-can-have-cheap-chicken/ http://qz.com/681025/big-poultry-workers-are-literally-peein... Unless you think it is ok for you to potentially eat someone's very dangerous e. coli and salmonella from their asses because you want freedom? (I assume, and hope not) It's not a freedom if it kills you.

Americans like safety more than they like free markets. You might feel otherwise, but US citizens have made their collective decision.

by guyzero 10y ago

Americans like safety more than they like free markets. You might feel otherwise, but US citizens have made their collective decision.

yummyfajitas 10y ago

That's not true at all. As an American, I was never given the option to purchase an "unsafe" cigarette from Eric Garner - he was killed in order to prevent me from having that option.

randomdata 10y ago
I believe he is referring to the safety of a stable income, which such protectionism attempts to provide. If someone can come in and try to do a better job, then you are always at risk of losing your revenue stream. If the law prevents competition, then you can feel more secure in having that revenue stream for life.
maxerickson 10y ago
The NYC policing of singles is clearly about taxes no matter what else they might say to justify it.
ank_the_elder 10y ago
According to wikipedia, Garner was not primarily a cigarette salesman: 1. He had been a horticulturist at the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation, but quit for health reasons. 2. Garner had been arrested by the NYPD thirty times since 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, and grand larceny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner With thirty arrests, he is best described as a criminal who used to work as horticulturist. Although: "An official said he had been arrested multiple times for allegedly selling unlicensed cigarettes"
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  At least as indicated in the video of his death, none of this is relevant. He didn't assault any police officers when he was killed and he didn't appear to be resisting or committing larceny. Also, you do know that "resisting arrest" just means "the cops don't like this guy", right? (I suppose it's easy for folks who don't interact with the police not to know this.)
  - ank_the_elder 10y ago
    We must have seen different videos, then, as it's very clear from it that he was resisting arrest. Is this the one you were talking about? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8 PS: Can you tell just how biased you are? I'm curious as to how oblivious you are of your own professional shortcomings.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      I just rewatched the video, module the actual killing part. He's having a conversation and pretty animated, waving his arms Italian style, when the police grab him. Almost immediately he's put into a chokehold. Clearly the personal attacks bolster your case.
      - ank_the_elder 10y ago
        "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. "Who controls the past," ran the Party slogan, "controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. "Reality control," they called it: in Newspeak, "doublethink." (1.3.18)"
- zeveb 10y ago
  I think it's possible to believe: that Garner was not an ideal person; that the policy he was killed to enforce is wrong; and that his actual killing was wrong.

guyzero 10y ago

And to elaborate on this, wealthy societies "buy" all sorts of things via regulation that can't be directly purchased. Americans "buy" consumer safety by enacting regulations that reduce competition and increase overhead costs. Americans "buy" food safety by having government inspections and paperwork regulations that track supply chains in order to recall contaminated foods more quickly. Americans "buy" clean air and water by enacting pollution controls which raise prices. Americans "buy" fewer highway deaths by having lots of safety regulations on cars and putting up considerable trade barriers to imports (want to import a VW California to California? It's unlikely). Most western countries "buy" the same things. I suspect everyone wants these things but not every country is rich enough to "buy" them. And it's easy to fixate on the costs of these things (and yes, sometimes regulations go too far or the costs outweigh the benefits) and ignore the benefits, which mostly benefit a different set of people than those who bear the direct costs. But in the end all of these things are "bought" by distorting markets via regulation.

p4wnc6 10y ago
Some people may actually disagree that using the term "buy" or "bought" is accurate here, because they may look at the "transaction" and say that the "cost" is not actually a cost. In some cases it is -- paying for government food inspections costs time and money and so there is at minimum the opportunity cost of what else those resources could have been used for. But some things that people say are "costs" -- hindrances on employment, keeping the number of professionals in a certain field artificially low -- may not be viewed as costs. Some may say it's good to have a throttle on employment in field X, not just because of licensing, but because making it super easy to jump into X is just not desirable for anyone and it's too easy for uncredentialed Xers to rip unsuspecting people off, or something. I personally feel this way about Uber and Lyft services (but my opinion could change when self-driving cars become a part of that service). I'd love it if there were heavy licensing regulations for Uber/Lyft, and for drivers. I genuinely think everyone would be better off, and the "cost" of there not being an extremely liquid market for new drivers is actually not a real cost, that liquid market is more harmful for everyone than it is beneficial. We essentially get two "wins" -- regulated drivers leading to more safety, and regulated drivers leading to slightly slower pipeline of introduction of new drivers.

UK-AL 10y ago

How was this a collective decision? Business leader lobbying politicians is not really collective

guyzero 10y ago
yes, clearly the entire population of the US opposes every regulation ever enacted by the government.
- dyeje 10y ago
  They didn't say it was all or nothing.

zeveb 10y ago

> Americans like safety more than they like free markets. You might feel otherwise, but US citizens have made their collective decision. Yes, but your (or y'all's) collective decision that you prefer safety to freedom shouldn't infringe upon my choice to prefer freedom to safety.

shanacarp 10y ago
>Yes, but your (or y'all's) collective decision that you prefer safety to freedom shouldn't infringe upon my choice to prefer freedom to safety. I would also remind you that no classical libertarian(IE: John Locke) would allow you to go kill someone, and would say the state can and should have the power to regulate you to prevent you from doing so. So I would equally assume that in no way shape or form Locke would be ok with you dumping Trichloroethylene willy-nilly. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228569/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228569/ Unless of course you think it is ok to give someone kidney cancer and not tell them? (Dumping tricholorethlyene willy nilly makes a super-fund site. It takes years for cancer clusters to clear out as they get cleaned up. The one in Mountain View related to chip manufacture has only within the past year or so stopped causing cancer clusters en mass. Most of the silicon valley superfund sites come from TCE, and were declared as such around 1988. Though even today the EPA is cautious - people have seen TCE plumes in the Valley that still cause problems http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2015/12/16/discovery-of-toxic-chemical-prompts-changes-in-stanfords-housing-project http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2015/12/16/discovery-of-t... We're close to our 30th year of cleaning this stuff up. It is totally possible, and even probable, that if a pluse/area is massively disturbed, TCE will leach en mass into nearby people causing new cancer clusters, among other issues) I can extend this logic easily to the Food and Drug Act and its amendments - which is why it is terrible to find out that the 5 largest producers of chicken in the US allow people to pee and poop on themselves on the killing floor, because in chicken slaughterhouses, you aren't allowed to have bathroom breaks. http://qz.com/681025/big-poultry-workers-are-literally-peeing-their-pants-so-that-americans-can-have-cheap-chicken/ http://qz.com/681025/big-poultry-workers-are-literally-peein... Unless you think it is ok for you to potentially eat someone's very dangerous e. coli and salmonella from their asses because you want freedom? (I assume, and hope not) It's not a freedom if it kills you.