4 ms·

All the training in the world still doesn't make it a smart decision. You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price

by coryl 17y ago

All the training in the world still doesn't make it a smart decision. You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Once he has it, anything else is just extra work for him (assuming mental stability). In that case, then the Israeli soldier has no choice but to engage.

ErrantX 17y ago
> You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. The difference in skill is so important though. My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. There is the famous story of the Aikido founder who claimed to be able to dodge bullets - and did so, once dodging an entire firing squad. One of his students invited a game hunter to come and try hit him: the master accepted the challenge and stood opposite the hunter. Hunter stands there holding rifle, swings it up to shoot and the Master dives to the ground shouting "stop stop". When they asked him why he'd given up he said: "that man does not aim" He'd met his match and bowed out. The same lesson applies. The smart move may be to hand over the money - but if you assess the smarter move is to disarm him then you should do so. Also; waiting for an attack or more stress is the worst thing to do. If you have the element of surprise it is a big advantage. > Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Often this is not the case - especially in South America. If your mugger has a gun your probably dead. A knife? Depends where you are. > You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Again: if your confident and the odds stack up just go for it. Disarming a knife holder is pretty easy and unless they are really good with it then your unlikely to get badly hurt if your on the offensive.
- coryl 17y ago
  Wow, no, not even close. I mean no disrespect, but I think you need to reassess reality. There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Its not impossible to disarm a guy with a gun or knife, people spend their lives practicing it. But execution is a whole different ball game. You either succeed, or you die. If it matters, I train in brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing 4-5 days a week. In boxing, you can be highly skilled and duck, slip, and bob and weave punches. But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. Get a rubber knife, give it to your friend, and tell him to play robber. You'll get stabbed.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The first thing to remember is that if you take and maintain control of their wrist it is very hard for them to attack you - and harder to actually do serious damage. Usually they then focus on trying to regain control of the knife - at which point you either reach over with a spare hand and pressure point them into releasing the knife or you hit the solar plexus or whatever is within easy reach - really hard. EDIT: personally I would drive the heel of your hand into their jaw. It's an easy hit, hard to dodge (as you have their wrist) and big impact. > There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Agreed. I think the Hunter story is probably a parable - but Morehei Ueshiba did dodge bullets according to historical accounts [1]. Note that dodging bullets here means he read their body signals and moved out of the path he knew the bullets were going to travel. Still good timing though. Body signal reading is one of the basics of Aikido. > But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Ah... boxing. No disrespect intended here but boxers do get so cocky :D And your right that's where it fails. Martial arts is about discipline. It also trains you not to use reflexes. ever That will get you killed. This comes back to where I mentioned above that waiting to be attacked is the worst move: because you do then have to rely on reflexes to respond. If your attacking your always ahead of your opponent (unless they are also skilled) My personal survival training highlighted one thing: the mantra in a situation where your going to have to fight is - Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. 1.http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm
    - coryl 17y ago
      Like I said, you can train all you want and have the best training in the world. It still doesn't make it a smart decision to try and engage a robber with a knife. My boxing point was: you pay for your mistakes. The penalty for your mistakes in boxing is a punch. In a knife fight, the penalty is severely amplified. And thats a risk you could totally avoid by NOT pushing the confrontation. So full circle: just because you're trained and think you can take on a knife wielding robber, doesn't mean you should.
- Confusion 17y ago
  It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The 'minimal' is where your analysis goes completely out of the window. Wounds hurt; being hurt throws you off. Even a relatively undeep scratch with a knife can disable your hand. You can be trained all you want: you are not trained in fighting with a knife wound: when hurting and bleeding. This is why martial arts teachers all over the world tell their students: the best defense from a weapon is to run. If the change of getting hurt is 1%, it is too large. Hand over the money and run.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > Wounds hurt; being hurt throws you off In my other posts I talk about an important mantra: Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. You should be able to take down the assailant before any wound would take affect. If you cant do that then your not properly trained and you shouldn't be trying it :) I cant speak for martial arts directly because my training is military/civilian response based.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
    the best defense from a weapon is to run Actually, I've always held that the best defense against anything is to get your own weapon and attack like crazy. There's always one around: coffee mug, large rock, laptop, broom. Muggers, etc. rely on people doing what they're told. The "victim" immediately going on the offensive is the last thing they want. Sure, attacking your attacker has to be a calculated move, but if you think you're going to be killed or injured anyway, you have nothing to lose, so go for it and don't stop until he's a bleeding pulp on the ground.
- rubinelli 17y ago
  That mugger had all the signs of being a drug addict trying to get the money for his next fix. Here in São Paulo, professional criminals specialize in items with a better payoff, like laptops and motorcycles, and they rarely, if ever, act alone. Sometimes, only one approaches the victim, while his backup stands a few meters away.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    It was one of those people that live under and around this thing: http://www.thebrazilshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/8bd00f76d927144.jpg http://www.thebrazilshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/8bd00f7...
- scott_s 17y ago
  My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. That's a ridiculous statement. If someone has a gun pointed at you and is outside of kicking, punching or grabbing range, you are always a split second away from death. All gun disarms have one thing in common: you have to be close enough to touch the man with the gun. In the moment it takes to move into a range, they can pull the trigger.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > you are always a split second away from death. Depends on the gun and the range and what cover is available. Certainly they are unlikely to be hit with the first shot unless the shooter is skilled (this is always the key bit). If you can close fast enough after their first shot the only real risk is the closest few yards. Aikido masters sometimes demonstrate this with paint guns - I've seen people make maybe 20 feet (sometimes they are hit, usually nowhere fatal) and take down their opponent. Have you ever tried to hit an Aikido master? It's an amazing experience because it is pretty much impossible for anyone below their skill levels. They train to watch body signals and are already avoiding your punch before you actually move. Same applies to the gun (within reasonable limits). They can see where you are pointing it, where you intend to fire and have easily 1-2 seconds (if not more) on you when you start to pull the trigger. 1-2 seconds sounds like nothing but couple it with the time to pull the trigger and for the weapon to fire you easily have time to move out of the path.
    - donaq 17y ago
      Are you sure you're not confusing Aikido with the manga Aiki?
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        It's not a formal part of the martial art. But it is used as a training demonstration related to watching the body line for attack. Of course when your teacher tells you that it can even help you doge bullets they are hounded to prove it... :)
yummyfajitas 17y ago
I've learned a little bit of knife work from a very good Philipino knife fighter. He did a demo of what he calls the ultimate knife defense (he claims a 100% success rate in both practice and on the street): A student held up the knife and demanded his wallet. Guro took his wallet out slowly, and tossed it behind the student at an angle (i.e., didn't scare him by throwing it directly). The student bent to retrieve the wallet; when he looked away, Guro turned and ran out the door screaming "help, police, he's got a knife!"
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Not good advice. It will get you killed in many places. Throw the wallet and back out slowly. EDIT: but a good anecdote :) he sounds like a fun person to know.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    He actually clarified that you should only yell for the police if you are in a place where help is likely to arrive quickly (as well as several other clarifications). I skipped the caveats and clarifications since they would mess up the pacing of the story.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Sorry, I jumped on the story pretty hard :(

by coryl 17y ago

ErrantX 17y ago

> You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. The difference in skill is so important though. My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. There is the famous story of the Aikido founder who claimed to be able to dodge bullets - and did so, once dodging an entire firing squad. One of his students invited a game hunter to come and try hit him: the master accepted the challenge and stood opposite the hunter. Hunter stands there holding rifle, swings it up to shoot and the Master dives to the ground shouting "stop stop". When they asked him why he'd given up he said: "that man does not aim" He'd met his match and bowed out. The same lesson applies. The smart move may be to hand over the money - but if you assess the smarter move is to disarm him then you should do so. Also; waiting for an attack or more stress is the worst thing to do. If you have the element of surprise it is a big advantage. > Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Often this is not the case - especially in South America. If your mugger has a gun your probably dead. A knife? Depends where you are. > You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Again: if your confident and the odds stack up just go for it. Disarming a knife holder is pretty easy and unless they are really good with it then your unlikely to get badly hurt if your on the offensive.

coryl 17y ago
Wow, no, not even close. I mean no disrespect, but I think you need to reassess reality. There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Its not impossible to disarm a guy with a gun or knife, people spend their lives practicing it. But execution is a whole different ball game. You either succeed, or you die. If it matters, I train in brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing 4-5 days a week. In boxing, you can be highly skilled and duck, slip, and bob and weave punches. But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. Get a rubber knife, give it to your friend, and tell him to play robber. You'll get stabbed.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The first thing to remember is that if you take and maintain control of their wrist it is very hard for them to attack you - and harder to actually do serious damage. Usually they then focus on trying to regain control of the knife - at which point you either reach over with a spare hand and pressure point them into releasing the knife or you hit the solar plexus or whatever is within easy reach - really hard. EDIT: personally I would drive the heel of your hand into their jaw. It's an easy hit, hard to dodge (as you have their wrist) and big impact. > There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Agreed. I think the Hunter story is probably a parable - but Morehei Ueshiba did dodge bullets according to historical accounts [1]. Note that dodging bullets here means he read their body signals and moved out of the path he knew the bullets were going to travel. Still good timing though. Body signal reading is one of the basics of Aikido. > But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Ah... boxing. No disrespect intended here but boxers do get so cocky :D And your right that's where it fails. Martial arts is about discipline. It also trains you not to use reflexes. ever That will get you killed. This comes back to where I mentioned above that waiting to be attacked is the worst move: because you do then have to rely on reflexes to respond. If your attacking your always ahead of your opponent (unless they are also skilled) My personal survival training highlighted one thing: the mantra in a situation where your going to have to fight is - Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. 1.http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm
  - coryl 17y ago
    Like I said, you can train all you want and have the best training in the world. It still doesn't make it a smart decision to try and engage a robber with a knife. My boxing point was: you pay for your mistakes. The penalty for your mistakes in boxing is a punch. In a knife fight, the penalty is severely amplified. And thats a risk you could totally avoid by NOT pushing the confrontation. So full circle: just because you're trained and think you can take on a knife wielding robber, doesn't mean you should.
Confusion 17y ago
It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The 'minimal' is where your analysis goes completely out of the window. Wounds hurt; being hurt throws you off. Even a relatively undeep scratch with a knife can disable your hand. You can be trained all you want: you are not trained in fighting with a knife wound: when hurting and bleeding. This is why martial arts teachers all over the world tell their students: the best defense from a weapon is to run. If the change of getting hurt is 1%, it is too large. Hand over the money and run.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > Wounds hurt; being hurt throws you off In my other posts I talk about an important mantra: Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. You should be able to take down the assailant before any wound would take affect. If you cant do that then your not properly trained and you shouldn't be trying it :) I cant speak for martial arts directly because my training is military/civilian response based.
- HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
  the best defense from a weapon is to run Actually, I've always held that the best defense against anything is to get your own weapon and attack like crazy. There's always one around: coffee mug, large rock, laptop, broom. Muggers, etc. rely on people doing what they're told. The "victim" immediately going on the offensive is the last thing they want. Sure, attacking your attacker has to be a calculated move, but if you think you're going to be killed or injured anyway, you have nothing to lose, so go for it and don't stop until he's a bleeding pulp on the ground.
rubinelli 17y ago
That mugger had all the signs of being a drug addict trying to get the money for his next fix. Here in São Paulo, professional criminals specialize in items with a better payoff, like laptops and motorcycles, and they rarely, if ever, act alone. Sometimes, only one approaches the victim, while his backup stands a few meters away.
- maxklein 17y ago
  It was one of those people that live under and around this thing: http://www.thebrazilshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/8bd00f76d927144.jpg http://www.thebrazilshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/8bd00f7...
scott_s 17y ago
My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. That's a ridiculous statement. If someone has a gun pointed at you and is outside of kicking, punching or grabbing range, you are always a split second away from death. All gun disarms have one thing in common: you have to be close enough to touch the man with the gun. In the moment it takes to move into a range, they can pull the trigger.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > you are always a split second away from death. Depends on the gun and the range and what cover is available. Certainly they are unlikely to be hit with the first shot unless the shooter is skilled (this is always the key bit). If you can close fast enough after their first shot the only real risk is the closest few yards. Aikido masters sometimes demonstrate this with paint guns - I've seen people make maybe 20 feet (sometimes they are hit, usually nowhere fatal) and take down their opponent. Have you ever tried to hit an Aikido master? It's an amazing experience because it is pretty much impossible for anyone below their skill levels. They train to watch body signals and are already avoiding your punch before you actually move. Same applies to the gun (within reasonable limits). They can see where you are pointing it, where you intend to fire and have easily 1-2 seconds (if not more) on you when you start to pull the trigger. 1-2 seconds sounds like nothing but couple it with the time to pull the trigger and for the weapon to fire you easily have time to move out of the path.
  - donaq 17y ago
    Are you sure you're not confusing Aikido with the manga Aiki?
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      It's not a formal part of the martial art. But it is used as a training demonstration related to watching the body line for attack. Of course when your teacher tells you that it can even help you doge bullets they are hounded to prove it... :)

yummyfajitas 17y ago

I've learned a little bit of knife work from a very good Philipino knife fighter. He did a demo of what he calls the ultimate knife defense (he claims a 100% success rate in both practice and on the street): A student held up the knife and demanded his wallet. Guro took his wallet out slowly, and tossed it behind the student at an angle (i.e., didn't scare him by throwing it directly). The student bent to retrieve the wallet; when he looked away, Guro turned and ran out the door screaming "help, police, he's got a knife!"

ErrantX 17y ago
Not good advice. It will get you killed in many places. Throw the wallet and back out slowly. EDIT: but a good anecdote :) he sounds like a fun person to know.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  He actually clarified that you should only yell for the police if you are in a place where help is likely to arrive quickly (as well as several other clarifications). I skipped the caveats and clarifications since they would mess up the pacing of the story.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    Sorry, I jumped on the story pretty hard :(