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> The intelligent thing to do would have been to hand over the money and NOT risk being sliced open lol. Not for the Israeli soldier. Consider: he must have be

by ErrantX 17y ago

> The intelligent thing to do would have been to hand over the money and NOT risk being sliced open lol. Not for the Israeli soldier. Consider: he must have been confident in his ability to disarm the guy (based on his assessment that he did not know how to handle the knife). The other option of co-operation gives control to the thief, that's not a good thing if you can avoid it.

coryl 17y ago
All the training in the world still doesn't make it a smart decision. You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Once he has it, anything else is just extra work for him (assuming mental stability). In that case, then the Israeli soldier has no choice but to engage.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. The difference in skill is so important though. My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. There is the famous story of the Aikido founder who claimed to be able to dodge bullets - and did so, once dodging an entire firing squad. One of his students invited a game hunter to come and try hit him: the master accepted the challenge and stood opposite the hunter. Hunter stands there holding rifle, swings it up to shoot and the Master dives to the ground shouting "stop stop". When they asked him why he'd given up he said: "that man does not aim" He'd met his match and bowed out. The same lesson applies. The smart move may be to hand over the money - but if you assess the smarter move is to disarm him then you should do so. Also; waiting for an attack or more stress is the worst thing to do. If you have the element of surprise it is a big advantage. > Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Often this is not the case - especially in South America. If your mugger has a gun your probably dead. A knife? Depends where you are. > You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Again: if your confident and the odds stack up just go for it. Disarming a knife holder is pretty easy and unless they are really good with it then your unlikely to get badly hurt if your on the offensive.
  - coryl 17y ago
    Wow, no, not even close. I mean no disrespect, but I think you need to reassess reality. There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Its not impossible to disarm a guy with a gun or knife, people spend their lives practicing it. But execution is a whole different ball game. You either succeed, or you die. If it matters, I train in brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing 4-5 days a week. In boxing, you can be highly skilled and duck, slip, and bob and weave punches. But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. Get a rubber knife, give it to your friend, and tell him to play robber. You'll get stabbed.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      > Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The first thing to remember is that if you take and maintain control of their wrist it is very hard for them to attack you - and harder to actually do serious damage. Usually they then focus on trying to regain control of the knife - at which point you either reach over with a spare hand and pressure point them into releasing the knife or you hit the solar plexus or whatever is within easy reach - really hard. EDIT: personally I would drive the heel of your hand into their jaw. It's an easy hit, hard to dodge (as you have their wrist) and big impact. > There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Agreed. I think the Hunter story is probably a parable - but Morehei Ueshiba did dodge bullets according to historical accounts [1]. Note that dodging bullets here means he read their body signals and moved out of the path he knew the bullets were going to travel. Still good timing though. Body signal reading is one of the basics of Aikido. > But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Ah... boxing. No disrespect intended here but boxers do get so cocky :D And your right that's where it fails. Martial arts is about discipline. It also trains you not to use reflexes. ever That will get you killed. This comes back to where I mentioned above that waiting to be attacked is the worst move: because you do then have to rely on reflexes to respond. If your attacking your always ahead of your opponent (unless they are also skilled) My personal survival training highlighted one thing: the mantra in a situation where your going to have to fight is - Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. 1.http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  I've learned a little bit of knife work from a very good Philipino knife fighter. He did a demo of what he calls the ultimate knife defense (he claims a 100% success rate in both practice and on the street): A student held up the knife and demanded his wallet. Guro took his wallet out slowly, and tossed it behind the student at an angle (i.e., didn't scare him by throwing it directly). The student bent to retrieve the wallet; when he looked away, Guro turned and ran out the door screaming "help, police, he's got a knife!"
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    Not good advice. It will get you killed in many places. Throw the wallet and back out slowly. EDIT: but a good anecdote :) he sounds like a fun person to know.
    - yummyfajitas 17y ago
      He actually clarified that you should only yell for the police if you are in a place where help is likely to arrive quickly (as well as several other clarifications). I skipped the caveats and clarifications since they would mess up the pacing of the story.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        Sorry, I jumped on the story pretty hard :(
rubyrescue 17y ago
wow, according to the OP's twitter: (http://twitter.com/maxklein http://twitter.com/maxklein) The same Israeli soldier was killed in a robbery two years later... which is a huge asterix on the post.
- coryl 17y ago
  Wow, thats sad to hear actually. RIP Ofer. We don't know the story behind that robbery, so its probably best not to jump to conclusions. But it wouldn't be a wild guess to think he fought back and didn't make it this time.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    I don't know the full story from a direct source, but I heard that thieves saw him withdrawing money from the bank, and they were waiting for him in his hotel room when he arrived. And they killed him in the process of taking the money. Who knows what happened in there? Maybe he fought, maybe not.
    - coryl 17y ago
      Thanks for posting the story. Based on that, if people were waiting in his hotel room to rob him, it sounds like he didn't have a choice but to fight back.
      - keefe 17y ago
        There's obviously no way of telling. However, most criminals avoid murder - it's messy, people get all upset. I was in martial arts for a long time, the first thing they tell you is that you don't want to fight. You want to run away unless you have no choice. So, you learn to strike hard and fast at multiple targets. This gives you space and then you run, preferably throwing your wallet or some cash behind you. Nobody typically carries a week or even a month's salary as they wander about. Dead is really dead and the only priority is to get out. That kind of attitude is very different than trying to not be robbed, which is much more likely to get you killed. In the first case you could argue he had to fight this guy because OP was hanging around watching the action. If I'm with some guy with combat training and somebody pulls a knife? I know he can take care of himself, I'll toss whatever valuable in my pockets out there (always wise to keep cash outside your wallet in rough area) then run like the devil was behind me. Even if he's as fast as me, I've got adrenaline and the lead from him grabbing the cash. lol why I am writing so much I do not know...

by ErrantX 17y ago

coryl 17y ago

All the training in the world still doesn't make it a smart decision. You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Once he has it, anything else is just extra work for him (assuming mental stability). In that case, then the Israeli soldier has no choice but to engage.

ErrantX 17y ago
> You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. The difference in skill is so important though. My best mate is into Aikido - some of the masters he's trained with wouldn't flinch if threatened with a gun. It's no threat to them. There is the famous story of the Aikido founder who claimed to be able to dodge bullets - and did so, once dodging an entire firing squad. One of his students invited a game hunter to come and try hit him: the master accepted the challenge and stood opposite the hunter. Hunter stands there holding rifle, swings it up to shoot and the Master dives to the ground shouting "stop stop". When they asked him why he'd given up he said: "that man does not aim" He'd met his match and bowed out. The same lesson applies. The smart move may be to hand over the money - but if you assess the smarter move is to disarm him then you should do so. Also; waiting for an attack or more stress is the worst thing to do. If you have the element of surprise it is a big advantage. > Consider the thief's motivator is obviously money. Often this is not the case - especially in South America. If your mugger has a gun your probably dead. A knife? Depends where you are. > You only have to make a mistake once, or be a split second slow, to pay the ultimate price. Again: if your confident and the odds stack up just go for it. Disarming a knife holder is pretty easy and unless they are really good with it then your unlikely to get badly hurt if your on the offensive.
- coryl 17y ago
  Wow, no, not even close. I mean no disrespect, but I think you need to reassess reality. There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Its not impossible to disarm a guy with a gun or knife, people spend their lives practicing it. But execution is a whole different ball game. You either succeed, or you die. If it matters, I train in brazilian jiu jitsu and boxing 4-5 days a week. In boxing, you can be highly skilled and duck, slip, and bob and weave punches. But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. Get a rubber knife, give it to your friend, and tell him to play robber. You'll get stabbed.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    > Disarming a knife holder is NOT easy. It is. I have been trained in unarmed combat and it is relatively easy with a little training. I personally would be confident of disarming, with minimal or no injury, someone unfamiliar in handling a knife. The first thing to remember is that if you take and maintain control of their wrist it is very hard for them to attack you - and harder to actually do serious damage. Usually they then focus on trying to regain control of the knife - at which point you either reach over with a spare hand and pressure point them into releasing the knife or you hit the solar plexus or whatever is within easy reach - really hard. EDIT: personally I would drive the heel of your hand into their jaw. It's an easy hit, hard to dodge (as you have their wrist) and big impact. > There is a lot of bullshit in martial arts claims. Being able to dodge bullets, is obviously one of them. Agreed. I think the Hunter story is probably a parable - but Morehei Ueshiba did dodge bullets according to historical accounts [1]. Note that dodging bullets here means he read their body signals and moved out of the path he knew the bullets were going to travel. Still good timing though. Body signal reading is one of the basics of Aikido. > But if you become so cocky you decide to drop your hands and rely on your reflexes, you will be caught by even the worst fighters. Ah... boxing. No disrespect intended here but boxers do get so cocky :D And your right that's where it fails. Martial arts is about discipline. It also trains you not to use reflexes. ever That will get you killed. This comes back to where I mentioned above that waiting to be attacked is the worst move: because you do then have to rely on reflexes to respond. If your attacking your always ahead of your opponent (unless they are also skilled) My personal survival training highlighted one thing: the mantra in a situation where your going to have to fight is - Be first, Be sudden, Be brutal. 1.http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm http://martialarts.jameshom.com/library/weekly/aa043000.htm
yummyfajitas 17y ago
I've learned a little bit of knife work from a very good Philipino knife fighter. He did a demo of what he calls the ultimate knife defense (he claims a 100% success rate in both practice and on the street): A student held up the knife and demanded his wallet. Guro took his wallet out slowly, and tossed it behind the student at an angle (i.e., didn't scare him by throwing it directly). The student bent to retrieve the wallet; when he looked away, Guro turned and ran out the door screaming "help, police, he's got a knife!"
- ErrantX 17y ago
  Not good advice. It will get you killed in many places. Throw the wallet and back out slowly. EDIT: but a good anecdote :) he sounds like a fun person to know.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    He actually clarified that you should only yell for the police if you are in a place where help is likely to arrive quickly (as well as several other clarifications). I skipped the caveats and clarifications since they would mess up the pacing of the story.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      Sorry, I jumped on the story pretty hard :(

rubyrescue 17y ago

wow, according to the OP's twitter: (http://twitter.com/maxklein http://twitter.com/maxklein) The same Israeli soldier was killed in a robbery two years later... which is a huge asterix on the post.

coryl 17y ago
Wow, thats sad to hear actually. RIP Ofer. We don't know the story behind that robbery, so its probably best not to jump to conclusions. But it wouldn't be a wild guess to think he fought back and didn't make it this time.
- maxklein 17y ago
  I don't know the full story from a direct source, but I heard that thieves saw him withdrawing money from the bank, and they were waiting for him in his hotel room when he arrived. And they killed him in the process of taking the money. Who knows what happened in there? Maybe he fought, maybe not.
  - coryl 17y ago
    Thanks for posting the story. Based on that, if people were waiting in his hotel room to rob him, it sounds like he didn't have a choice but to fight back.
    - keefe 17y ago
      There's obviously no way of telling. However, most criminals avoid murder - it's messy, people get all upset. I was in martial arts for a long time, the first thing they tell you is that you don't want to fight. You want to run away unless you have no choice. So, you learn to strike hard and fast at multiple targets. This gives you space and then you run, preferably throwing your wallet or some cash behind you. Nobody typically carries a week or even a month's salary as they wander about. Dead is really dead and the only priority is to get out. That kind of attitude is very different than trying to not be robbed, which is much more likely to get you killed. In the first case you could argue he had to fight this guy because OP was hanging around watching the action. If I'm with some guy with combat training and somebody pulls a knife? I know he can take care of himself, I'll toss whatever valuable in my pockets out there (always wise to keep cash outside your wallet in rough area) then run like the devil was behind me. Even if he's as fast as me, I've got adrenaline and the lead from him grabbing the cash. lol why I am writing so much I do not know...