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I run a popular YouTube educational channel (in the top 10 for it's niche) and have had some serious issues with YouTube that have nearly made me quit. I had a

I run a popular YouTube educational channel (in the top 10 for it's niche) and have had some serious issues with YouTube that have nearly made me quit. I had a young (pre-teen) boy who filed copyright claims on several of my tutorials, and they where taken down instantly and took months to resolve via email. I lost about $1500 in revenues which was never returned. Beyond that, YouTube is taking a ~50% cut of your ad revenue AND any donation revenue on the site which seems pretty extreme. They also don't do good when it comes to new content discovery, as the YT search promotes mostly popular content (basically, bad for new creators).

ececconi 10y ago
Was the copyright claim against you a joke?
- CryoLogic 10y ago
  No the kid had similar tutorial videos and I think he wanted to be above me in search.
  - mratzloff 10y ago
    Were there any repercussions for his account?
    - apocalyptic0n3 10y ago
      Doubtful. YouTube doesn't punish false claims. It's one of the reasons content creators are upset with YouTube.
      - nkozyra 10y ago
        Wouldn't this also be really easy to game? Create a new account solely to make the copyright complaints?
        Vraxx 10y ago
        Not if there were simple measures put in place to stop new or otherwise unused accounts from making copyright complaints. Just to be thorough there could be an outlet for unregistered users that had a higher threshold of evidence required before taking the alleged infringing video down.
        newjersey 10y ago
        Kind of funny how it takes more effort to earn the privilege of downvoting on hn than it takes to make a legal statement (perjury yada yada) but I imagine adding these constraints will lead to a lawsuit before you can spell class action. Even if the lawsuit ultimately fails, it costs a bunch to defend it. In the face of effective zero competition, how can they justify the expense/risk to their corporate owners?
        Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
        Yes, it's one of the major issues with Youtube right now, even with then putting funds into escrow. It's also an opportunity to have fun, such as people uploading videos to deliberately trigger DMCA claims from multiple parties so that they can fight over it.
      - infinitesoup 10y ago
        Well, the law does not allow YouTube to "punish" false DMCA takedowns, so in those cases there's not much they can do. It's up to the person who had their content taken down to file a lawsuit if they want the person filing the takedown notice to face punishment (which is one of the broken aspects of the DMCA law). YouTube does punishes false claims through their Content ID system, though, as that's a system they control. From their website, "Content owners who repeatedly make erroneous claims can have their Content ID access disabled and their partnership with YouTube terminated."
        blakeyrat 10y ago
        YouTube says that, I've seen no evidence that they've ever actually punished a false claim, or even prevented that false claim from happening again. For example, a video of mine was ContentID claimed for a public domain piece of classical music. I successfully contested the claim (the scammers give up quickly because their bread-and-butter is the 95% of victims who YouTube scared away from the "contest claim" button, or who never revisit the video page after posting). About a month later, I re-edited the same video and re-uploaded it, and I got the same fraudulent strike from the same scammer that I'd already successfully contested.
Zikes 10y ago
They've finally revised their policies about how those copyright claims work revenue-wise, but it took them far too long.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  Only in cases where the video remains online. It wouldn't apply to the OP's case as no revenue was being generated at all.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  They've added escrow for situations where the video remains viewable, but ad revenue is claimed. OP says his video was struck from the site entirely. Escrow wouldn't have helped him.
Buge 10y ago
Do you have information about the 50% cut of donations? This page says that for non-profits, Youtube actually pays the fees themselves so 100% of the money goes to the target. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6327868?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6327868?hl=en And for Fan Funding it is a 5% + $0.21 fee. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6052077?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6052077?hl=en
- dsp1234 10y ago
  They are probably confusing YouTube with Twitch
beachstartup 10y ago
this comment isn't meant to be snarky, but as someone who deals with google as a vendor, it sounds like pretty typical google across the board, including the poor customer service.
mistermann 10y ago
> I lost about $1500 in revenues which was never returned. I've always wondered how much people make broadcasting on Youtube, could you possibly provide any insight into this (# videos you've posted, views stats, revenues, etc), or point me to anywhere one could read up on this?
- sudojudo 10y ago
  It varies, heavily. There are many calculators out there that try to answer this question, just drop "youtube revenue calculator" into your favorite search engine and a bunch will come up. Take the estimates with a grain of salt, but they'll give you an idea of what's involved. I've seen some content creators laugh at the numbers that are predicted for them, and others have shown surprise at their accuracy. So again, it varies.
- squeaky-clean 10y ago
  https://socialblade.com/youtube/ https://socialblade.com/youtube/ Is a pretty good tool for this. I have some friends who are "professional YouTubers" (big enough to quit their day-jobs, not big enough to buy a Ferrari), who have told me they use that site for refernce. The estimate it gives has a pretty wide range, but it's typically in the middle of the two extremes. Just searched for one of my friends, and averaging the estimate gives just slightly more than what he's making in a month from YT. Of course, it's all really variable and depends on the size of your channel. In January he had a video go viral and made as much as he did in all of 2015, but has since gone back to his more regular numbers (growing a little every month).
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Wow, I've always wondered what someone like markiplier makes. Even at the absolute low end, that's a crazy amount of money.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    DCTC toy channel, taking your middle of the road estimate = $6 million / yr.....unbelievable.
stephenr 10y ago
If YouTube is such a crap fest, why not use an alternative like Vimeo?
- thenomad 10y ago
  Not the original commenter, but: 1) Discovery's huge. People discover your video if it's on YouTube through YouTube similarity display, search, and similar. 2) Vimeo's still plagued with incompatibility issues. Every time I've done a major launch of a video on Vimeo I've had complaints. 3) People are just more comfortable with YouTube. Overall, as a rule of thumb as an indie filmmaker, I'd expect to get 4x the views from a YouTube release that I would from a Vimeo release.
- TrevorJ 10y ago
  Vimeo doesn't have the audience, and it's not looking for the type of content most youtube channels create.
- Grimm665 10y ago
  Vimeo has a reverse business model from YouTube, creators must pay Vimeo to host their videos. They also do not have an ad-revenue sharing program for creators to make money back from. Brady Haran and CGP Grey discuss their YouTube business and their gripes with the platform on Hello Internet. http://www.hellointernet.fm/podcast/58 http://www.hellointernet.fm/podcast/58
- untog 10y ago
  YouTube is a lot more than just a place to upload a video. It has discoverability, an ad platform, social...
guyzero 10y ago
YT recently made a change where they escrow revenue during disputes as opposed to just turning it off. http://youtubecreator.blogspot.com/2016/04/improving-content-id-for-creators.html http://youtubecreator.blogspot.com/2016/04/improving-content...
- sinxoveretothex 10y ago
  True, it's pretty recent https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6K1NiUY2s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6K1NiUY2s
chocolatebunny 10y ago
Aren't some of those issues related to the DMCA copyright laws so any other company would have to conform to them? Also, I think Twitch(which is owned by Amazon) has the same 50% cut as youtube so I doubt whatever new streaming service Amazon comes up with will have a different ratio.
- rasz_pl 10y ago
  YT claim and contentID system is not DMCA. It is entirely voluntary and governed by googles 'whatever the f we want' rules. If you are popular on Twitch you can get at least 60/40 split.
InclinedPlane 10y ago
Yup. I really don't get it. YouTube has so much potential, they have so much value and potential value in their content creators yet they continue to treat them generally very poorly. More proof that google is just bad at customer relationships. There are about a zillion very straightforward to implement things that google could be doing to significantly further YouTube and provide better service to their creators as well as build their revenue, but they haven't done any of them. It's maddening.
macspoofing 10y ago
>I had a young (pre-teen) boy who filed copyright claims on several of my tutorials, and they where taken down instantly and took months to resolve via email. I have a feeling no (big) video hosting site will be immune to this. This is a legal problem not a technology problem. >Beyond that, YouTube is taking a ~50% cut of your ad revenue AND any donation revenue on the site which seems pretty extreme. Yeah, I'm not sure what a 'fair' split is, but hosting and serving video is heavier than apps, and app-store collect 30% of revenue. With more competition that ratio may change in favor of content creators. >They also don't do good when it comes to new content discovery, as the YT search promotes mostly popular content Again, I think this is less YouTube and more the nature of the beast. You're in a typical long-tail market - where you compete with millions of other creators, with low barriers to entry. No search or discovery is going to get it right.
- mastermojo 10y ago
  Google is notorious for not having 'human" customer service though. Their philosophy of automating everything means flagged videos will get removed, and then the content creator get directed to a community forum to vent. This has happened to me before too.
  - infinitesoup 10y ago
    Flagged videos aren't removed automatically; a human reviews them first. It would probably be better if it was more automated, because humans make mistakes and machines don't get tired after a long day of reviewing videos. "YouTube staff review flagged videos 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and videos that violate our Community Guidelines are removed from YouTube. ... Flagged videos are not automatically taken down by the flagging system. If a video doesn't violate our guidelines, no amount of flagging will change that, and the video will stay on the site." Source: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802027?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802027?hl=en
- serge2k 10y ago
  > >I had a young (pre-teen) boy who filed copyright claims on several of my tutorials, and they where taken down instantly and took months to resolve via email. I have a feeling no (big) video hosting site will be immune to this. This is a legal problem not a technology problem. It's a basic support problem in the case of youtube. They only just started a program to actually give support to content creators.
marincounty 10y ago
A little off subject, but I just realized how to remove my old videos. I'll just fine a copyright claim on myself? I have videos on YouTube that I can't remove. When Google bought YouTube, and made everyone change their login credentials, I must have made a major mistake. I can't get to my videos. It's been a few years now. Why remove the videos? Because I don't like giving away content to Google. I had no problems with YouTube, but Google is not going to put ads on my videos, while I get nothing. They aren't even good videos, but they serve a niche market? I guess? I tried Google's customer service, "That's not my department. Please go to the help boards. Please don't use this email, unless you decide to advertise with us?" I used to feel fine about giving away content. "Here--you can have it. I love your site. I'm grateful you didn't sell out to the highest advertiser." Those days are over.
serge2k 10y ago
> I lost about $1500 in revenues which was never returned. apparently (according to a podcast I listen to) they are actually dealing with this. I guess before if you filed a copyright claim you could just monetize and make off with the money on a video?
- bryanlarsen 10y ago
  AFAICT, previously YouTube would turn off advertisements on any video in conflict, so nobody (including YouTube) made any money on a copyright claim.

ececconi 10y ago

Was the copyright claim against you a joke?

CryoLogic 10y ago
No the kid had similar tutorial videos and I think he wanted to be above me in search.
- mratzloff 10y ago
  Were there any repercussions for his account?
  - apocalyptic0n3 10y ago
    Doubtful. YouTube doesn't punish false claims. It's one of the reasons content creators are upset with YouTube.
    - nkozyra 10y ago
      Wouldn't this also be really easy to game? Create a new account solely to make the copyright complaints?
      - Vraxx 10y ago
        Not if there were simple measures put in place to stop new or otherwise unused accounts from making copyright complaints. Just to be thorough there could be an outlet for unregistered users that had a higher threshold of evidence required before taking the alleged infringing video down.
        newjersey 10y ago
        Kind of funny how it takes more effort to earn the privilege of downvoting on hn than it takes to make a legal statement (perjury yada yada) but I imagine adding these constraints will lead to a lawsuit before you can spell class action. Even if the lawsuit ultimately fails, it costs a bunch to defend it. In the face of effective zero competition, how can they justify the expense/risk to their corporate owners?
      - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 10y ago
        Yes, it's one of the major issues with Youtube right now, even with then putting funds into escrow. It's also an opportunity to have fun, such as people uploading videos to deliberately trigger DMCA claims from multiple parties so that they can fight over it.
    - infinitesoup 10y ago
      Well, the law does not allow YouTube to "punish" false DMCA takedowns, so in those cases there's not much they can do. It's up to the person who had their content taken down to file a lawsuit if they want the person filing the takedown notice to face punishment (which is one of the broken aspects of the DMCA law). YouTube does punishes false claims through their Content ID system, though, as that's a system they control. From their website, "Content owners who repeatedly make erroneous claims can have their Content ID access disabled and their partnership with YouTube terminated."
      - blakeyrat 10y ago
        YouTube says that, I've seen no evidence that they've ever actually punished a false claim, or even prevented that false claim from happening again. For example, a video of mine was ContentID claimed for a public domain piece of classical music. I successfully contested the claim (the scammers give up quickly because their bread-and-butter is the 95% of victims who YouTube scared away from the "contest claim" button, or who never revisit the video page after posting). About a month later, I re-edited the same video and re-uploaded it, and I got the same fraudulent strike from the same scammer that I'd already successfully contested.

Zikes 10y ago

They've finally revised their policies about how those copyright claims work revenue-wise, but it took them far too long.

Someone1234 10y ago
Only in cases where the video remains online. It wouldn't apply to the OP's case as no revenue was being generated at all.
blakeyrat 10y ago
They've added escrow for situations where the video remains viewable, but ad revenue is claimed. OP says his video was struck from the site entirely. Escrow wouldn't have helped him.

Buge 10y ago

Do you have information about the 50% cut of donations? This page says that for non-profits, Youtube actually pays the fees themselves so 100% of the money goes to the target. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6327868?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6327868?hl=en And for Fan Funding it is a 5% + $0.21 fee. https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6052077?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6052077?hl=en

dsp1234 10y ago
They are probably confusing YouTube with Twitch

beachstartup 10y ago

this comment isn't meant to be snarky, but as someone who deals with google as a vendor, it sounds like pretty typical google across the board, including the poor customer service.

mistermann 10y ago

> I lost about $1500 in revenues which was never returned. I've always wondered how much people make broadcasting on Youtube, could you possibly provide any insight into this (# videos you've posted, views stats, revenues, etc), or point me to anywhere one could read up on this?

sudojudo 10y ago
It varies, heavily. There are many calculators out there that try to answer this question, just drop "youtube revenue calculator" into your favorite search engine and a bunch will come up. Take the estimates with a grain of salt, but they'll give you an idea of what's involved. I've seen some content creators laugh at the numbers that are predicted for them, and others have shown surprise at their accuracy. So again, it varies.
squeaky-clean 10y ago
https://socialblade.com/youtube/ https://socialblade.com/youtube/ Is a pretty good tool for this. I have some friends who are "professional YouTubers" (big enough to quit their day-jobs, not big enough to buy a Ferrari), who have told me they use that site for refernce. The estimate it gives has a pretty wide range, but it's typically in the middle of the two extremes. Just searched for one of my friends, and averaging the estimate gives just slightly more than what he's making in a month from YT. Of course, it's all really variable and depends on the size of your channel. In January he had a video go viral and made as much as he did in all of 2015, but has since gone back to his more regular numbers (growing a little every month).
- kbenson 10y ago
  Wow, I've always wondered what someone like markiplier makes. Even at the absolute low end, that's a crazy amount of money.
- mistermann 10y ago
  DCTC toy channel, taking your middle of the road estimate = $6 million / yr.....unbelievable.

stephenr 10y ago

If YouTube is such a crap fest, why not use an alternative like Vimeo?

thenomad 10y ago
Not the original commenter, but: 1) Discovery's huge. People discover your video if it's on YouTube through YouTube similarity display, search, and similar. 2) Vimeo's still plagued with incompatibility issues. Every time I've done a major launch of a video on Vimeo I've had complaints. 3) People are just more comfortable with YouTube. Overall, as a rule of thumb as an indie filmmaker, I'd expect to get 4x the views from a YouTube release that I would from a Vimeo release.
TrevorJ 10y ago
Vimeo doesn't have the audience, and it's not looking for the type of content most youtube channels create.
Grimm665 10y ago
Vimeo has a reverse business model from YouTube, creators must pay Vimeo to host their videos. They also do not have an ad-revenue sharing program for creators to make money back from. Brady Haran and CGP Grey discuss their YouTube business and their gripes with the platform on Hello Internet. http://www.hellointernet.fm/podcast/58 http://www.hellointernet.fm/podcast/58
untog 10y ago
YouTube is a lot more than just a place to upload a video. It has discoverability, an ad platform, social...

guyzero 10y ago

YT recently made a change where they escrow revenue during disputes as opposed to just turning it off. http://youtubecreator.blogspot.com/2016/04/improving-content-id-for-creators.html http://youtubecreator.blogspot.com/2016/04/improving-content...

sinxoveretothex 10y ago
True, it's pretty recent https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6K1NiUY2s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0a6K1NiUY2s

chocolatebunny 10y ago

Aren't some of those issues related to the DMCA copyright laws so any other company would have to conform to them? Also, I think Twitch(which is owned by Amazon) has the same 50% cut as youtube so I doubt whatever new streaming service Amazon comes up with will have a different ratio.

rasz_pl 10y ago
YT claim and contentID system is not DMCA. It is entirely voluntary and governed by googles 'whatever the f we want' rules. If you are popular on Twitch you can get at least 60/40 split.

InclinedPlane 10y ago

Yup. I really don't get it. YouTube has so much potential, they have so much value and potential value in their content creators yet they continue to treat them generally very poorly. More proof that google is just bad at customer relationships. There are about a zillion very straightforward to implement things that google could be doing to significantly further YouTube and provide better service to their creators as well as build their revenue, but they haven't done any of them. It's maddening.

macspoofing 10y ago

>I had a young (pre-teen) boy who filed copyright claims on several of my tutorials, and they where taken down instantly and took months to resolve via email. I have a feeling no (big) video hosting site will be immune to this. This is a legal problem not a technology problem. >Beyond that, YouTube is taking a ~50% cut of your ad revenue AND any donation revenue on the site which seems pretty extreme. Yeah, I'm not sure what a 'fair' split is, but hosting and serving video is heavier than apps, and app-store collect 30% of revenue. With more competition that ratio may change in favor of content creators. >They also don't do good when it comes to new content discovery, as the YT search promotes mostly popular content Again, I think this is less YouTube and more the nature of the beast. You're in a typical long-tail market - where you compete with millions of other creators, with low barriers to entry. No search or discovery is going to get it right.

mastermojo 10y ago
Google is notorious for not having 'human" customer service though. Their philosophy of automating everything means flagged videos will get removed, and then the content creator get directed to a community forum to vent. This has happened to me before too.
- infinitesoup 10y ago
  Flagged videos aren't removed automatically; a human reviews them first. It would probably be better if it was more automated, because humans make mistakes and machines don't get tired after a long day of reviewing videos. "YouTube staff review flagged videos 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and videos that violate our Community Guidelines are removed from YouTube. ... Flagged videos are not automatically taken down by the flagging system. If a video doesn't violate our guidelines, no amount of flagging will change that, and the video will stay on the site." Source: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802027?hl=en https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802027?hl=en
serge2k 10y ago
> >I had a young (pre-teen) boy who filed copyright claims on several of my tutorials, and they where taken down instantly and took months to resolve via email. I have a feeling no (big) video hosting site will be immune to this. This is a legal problem not a technology problem. It's a basic support problem in the case of youtube. They only just started a program to actually give support to content creators.

marincounty 10y ago

A little off subject, but I just realized how to remove my old videos. I'll just fine a copyright claim on myself? I have videos on YouTube that I can't remove. When Google bought YouTube, and made everyone change their login credentials, I must have made a major mistake. I can't get to my videos. It's been a few years now. Why remove the videos? Because I don't like giving away content to Google. I had no problems with YouTube, but Google is not going to put ads on my videos, while I get nothing. They aren't even good videos, but they serve a niche market? I guess? I tried Google's customer service, "That's not my department. Please go to the help boards. Please don't use this email, unless you decide to advertise with us?" I used to feel fine about giving away content. "Here--you can have it. I love your site. I'm grateful you didn't sell out to the highest advertiser." Those days are over.

serge2k 10y ago

> I lost about $1500 in revenues which was never returned. apparently (according to a podcast I listen to) they are actually dealing with this. I guess before if you filed a copyright claim you could just monetize and make off with the money on a video?

bryanlarsen 10y ago
AFAICT, previously YouTube would turn off advertisements on any video in conflict, so nobody (including YouTube) made any money on a copyright claim.