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Ephemeral is developing tattoo ink designed to disappear after a year
- aristus 10y agoLong long ago I was a tattoo artist. With very careful needle adjustments, color choices, and a steady hand, this is already possible with conventional inks. Simple example: white ink is titanium oxide, basically sunscreen, and breaks down rapidly with exposure to UV. But you are still gonna have scarring and roughening. If you're gonna get ink, be prepared to have it for life. Also, testing on pigs? Like, live pigs? I'd pay money to see that. :)
- bluerobotcat 10y agoA Belgian artist did this too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUcX0owdIhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUcX0owdIhY
- bluerobotcat 10y agoI just realized the video doesn't say. The artist is Wim Delvoye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Delvoye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Delvoye).
- ChristianBundy 10y ago> Also, testing on pigs? Like, live pigs? I'd pay money to see that. :) Disgusting and shameful behavior, I can't believe that attitudes like this still exist.
- PeCaN 10y agoCan't blame someone for finding pigs getting tattoos quite amusing. :-) You know full well that it's not a big deal and you're just making edgy comments for the sake of edgy comments. For fuck sake dude, it's a pig. If you actually care about living things, do something about the slave labor used to source raw materials for the computer you wrote that on. I'm going to guess your conviction is about living creatures in pain, not about pigs in particular. One of these is much more disgusting than the other. Honestly who gives a flying fuck about a pig getting a tattoo.
- lfender6445 10y agowatching the video the pigs seem pretty comfy for the most part. i would have thought they'd be squealing and writhing
- ggus 10y agothey are sedated. (the author say it in the wiki article)
- CydeWeys 10y agoHell, out in the real world, animals get eaten alive all the time. Getting a tattoo isn't even close to the worst thing that can happen.
- pyre 10y agoThis is specious logic. You're saying that anything up to, but not including, getting eaten alive is ok because "it could always be worse."
- PeCaN 10y agoI suspect your parent's point was that saying putting tattoos on pigs is "disgusting and shameful" is a little odd, given that animals eat each other all the time (which is presumably not disgusting nor shameful).
- pyre 10y agoThe logic doesn't work because the two acts are not necessarily equal. Let's take another example: Would you equate the following items? - Torturing an animal to death for fun. - Killing an animal quickly and eating it. They both end up with the animal being dead. Does that mean that they are equal and that you can't find one "disgusting and shameful" but not the other?
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- aristus 10y agoI meant more in the sense of watching someone try to tattoo a 100kg hog, and how hard they'd get bit. But you are right, it's probably more like little adorable Wilbur pigs. :(
- jamespo 10y agoYes, I thought pig tattooing as a spectator sport died out in the 70s.
- TrevorJ 10y agoWhy? They are testing if the tattoo fades or not, there's really no chance of adverse effects. The worst thing that happens is a pig has a permanent tattoo.
- cafard 10y agoA friend's daughter does tattooing, and from the friend I heard that apprentice artists work on pigskin. I had imagined footballs, but no, this is obtained from slaughterhouses or butchers. Anyway, I guess that footballs aren't made of pigskin.
- aristus 10y agoPigskins, oranges, old shoes, dumb friends... :) But they are talking about tattoos that fade because they are broken down by a biological process, which makes me giggle picturing Arnold The Pig with "Born 2 Trot" on his hock.
- maxerickson 10y agoTitanium dioxide does not break down in the presence of UV. Any fading would likely be from migration.
- aristus 10y agoYou are correct. Tattooists aren't known for their biochem chops.
- hoodoof 10y agoDo the pigs have beards and skinny jeans on? Perhaps ear piercings with giant holes? Hipster hogs.
- dang 10y agoYou've posted a lot of unsubstantive comments to HN. Please don't do that. We're hoping for a higher signal/noise ratio here.
- merqurio 10y agoIf they really have a solution that is safe and they prove it, they will really disrupt the tattoo market. Losing the fear with a solution like this one will make people want more tattoos for sure !
- daveguy 10y agoSafety is definitely the number 1 concern. I'm not sure how long trials will need to run before they can confirm there is no increased cancer risk. Also a concern. If it's gone in a year, what does it look like in 6 months? Are you going to look like you have a nasty blob-bruise for 6 months as the definition fades and the ink migrates?
- jessriedel 10y agoThere is absolutely no way that they can take enough statistics to prove that there's no increased cancer risk. i don't think we even know whether regular tattoos increase cancer risks.
- refurb 10y agoWe don't know a 100% whether current tattoo inks causes cancer, but we have a pretty good body of evidence to suggest they don't. Most tattoo inks are pretty old compounds whose toxicity has been tested (e.g. black ink is carbon black).
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y agoHow common is cancer in Australia? In 2016, it is estimated that the risk of an individual being diagnosed with cancer by their 85th birthday will be 1 in 2 (1 in 2 males and 1 in 3 females).[1] According to at least one source[2] 14.5% of Australians have a tattoo. I'm going to go with tattoo ink not being a major cause of cancer. If it were you would expect to see more skin cancers local to the tattoo, or some other particular type of cancer more common among those with tattoos. I think we've got bigger problems than any potential cancer risk form tattoos. Bigger problems like alcohol, cigarettes, benzene in petrol, vehicle exhaust, combustion of coal for electricity, consumption of processed meats - these are all known carcinogens[3]. 1. https://canceraustralia.gov.au/affected-cancer/what-cancer/cancer-australia-statistics https://canceraustralia.gov.au/affected-cancer/what-cancer/c... 2. http://www.disappearink.com.au/post/tattoo-statistics-australia/ http://www.disappearink.com.au/post/tattoo-statistics-austra... 3. http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/generalinformationaboutcarcinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/g...
- CitizenKane 10y agoI'm torn. On one hand, this invention will keep a lot of people from making the very common mistake of getting ink they don't like and can't remove. On the other hand, a beautiful part of this art form is that it is basically permanent. To my mind, a tattoo loses a lot of its value of it's only temporary.
- geoelectric 10y agoHenna tattoos are a thing, though, too. Ephemeral (small-e) tattoos aren't a new thing, only this particular type.
- jbpetersen 10y agoAs an outsider, my expectations are that a lot of current tattoo culture will migrate to other/newer forms of body modification.
- danieltillett 10y agoYep they will become a marker of your generation. I am hoping that by the time my kids grow up that tattoos will be seen by them as those blobby blue things that old people have on them.
- niccaluim 10y agoYeah, I had the same reaction. I've got quite a bit of ink and the permanence is a huge part of what makes it meaningful to me. They aren't just pretty pictures; they tell a story.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago$50-100 for an average sized tattoo. So that's the price before you even pay the artist to do the work. Quite a big premium. I'd say the 'average' sized tattoo (something large on your bicep but not fully covering it or wrapping around it) is probably $300 and most of that cost is labour. Add the price of this expensive ink and you're paying $350-400 - for something that's going to disappear after a year.
- jfoutz 10y agoSo, a handful of fancy dinners? a cheap road trip? people pay a lot for an experience. Having the experience in a long term consequence free way will entice lots of people to try it out, i think.
- mbillie1 10y agoNot to nitpick but $50-100 buys you typically an extremely small, single-color tattoo in many places. My last tattoo was a simple flag about 2x3" with 3 colors and a geometric design and cost around $120. Not sure what an "average" size tattoo is, but you're already looking at $350-400 for say, a 3x6" full color tattoo of any appreciable complexity.
- scott_s 10y agoI think you misunderstood k-mcgrady. The $50-100 is for the new ink, as per the company developing it. k-mcgrady quoted about the same as you for the existing cost for a tattoo.
- k-mcgrady 10y agoAs scott_s pointer out $50-100 was just the price of this special ink. So for the extremely small tattoo price you're quoting this ink doubles the total cost and only lasts 1 year.
- jbpetersen 10y agoIf tattoos are suddenly much more accessible, then there's going to be a lot more competition driving the price down, including a lot more opportunity for people to gain experience tattooing.
- zck 10y agoOne interesting use for this would be to get a tattoo you think you want to be permanent, and then when it fades, decide if you liked it enough to get it redone with permanent ink.
- k-mcgrady 10y agoYour doubling the cost of a tattoo though and they're already pretty expensive. Wouldn't it make more sense to just be certain you want one before you get it and save hundreds of dollars?
- geoelectric 10y agoOTOH, it's really, really expensive when it turns out the execution of it isn't the same as you imagined. I'd probably handle that via image manipulation, though. It'd be a neat use of augmented reality or possibly virtual reality tech, too.
- zck 10y ago> Wouldn't it make more sense to just be certain you want one before you get it and save hundreds of dollars? Sure. But how can you be certain? I have no idea what it's like to have a tattoo, or whether I'd regret it. Would I be too self-conscious about having it? Or would I enjoy seeing it in the dark? I've had one specific one in mind for most of my life, but I don't know if I want it. If I were able to get a fading one, I'd be way more likely to jump on it. The increased cost is nothing compared to being able to decide if I actually like the damn thing.
- CX4048 10y agoJust get a henna tattoo of what you are wanting. If you don't miss it after it's gone, then don't get the tattoo. Pretty straight forward and shorter waiting period for evaluation. I jumped the gun and got mine having been in the same predicament and don't regret it. Having thought about it for years, it was easy with just a little nudge.
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- geoelectric 10y agoNow I'm picturing National Security Letter canary tattoos for technical activists.
- WiseWeasel 10y agoIt's all fun and games until you get a court order to have it redone every year.
- mhays 10y agoThe only thing stopping me from getting an arm sleeve is knowing it will be there forever, and during future times when I can't have one. Though if it lasts 12 months, by month 8 will I have a half-faded looking thing that I either have to retouch, or deal with until it fades completely?
- gjolund 10y agoIf you are worried that you won't like your tattoo in 20 years, then you are correct in not getting one. If you are getting a tattoo because it looks cool right now, save your money and just get a better wardrobe.
- marincounty 10y agoI knew I was getting old when viewing tattoos. I used to look at tattoos, and think about the artist's ability, what's the meaning, what body part is the tattoo emphasizing. I now look at a tattoo, and wonder is that a tattoo, or is the liver compromised, producing less platelets, causing the person to bruise easily?
- solipsism 10y agoOh good, even more barbed wire biceps, carp sleeves, black fore-arm stars, "tribal" patterns on white dudes, spiderwebs, hummingbirds, infinity symbols, and other ways for people to show how eager they are to express their "individuality"! Edit: Down-vote me if I offend your tattooed rebellious self-image, it's fine, but there's a real point to be made. This technology will lead to a lot more tattoos, and a lot more homogeneity and poor designs. I know people with tattoos that most people would actually call legitimate "art", and I know some of them wouldn't be particularly thrilled by the further "watering down" of what they consider an important part of their identity.
- askldfhjkasfhd 10y agoThe downvotes are because your comment added nothing to the discussion beyond expressing your distaste for people who dare decorate their body in a way that indicates membership in a group you personally have distaste for.
- solipsism 10y agoYes, and the up-votes were because the up-voters understand nuance.
- steele 10y agoNah, they are probably salty folk like yourself that got a chuckle from your open mic night tattoo joke because you typed what they were thinking but chose not to comment because it little to do with the actual article or because your complaint was a complete work and they felt they could add nothing and echoing the sentiment would be ironic in this context. With that said, you articulated one of the most clichéd reactions to fad tattoo designs.
- steele 10y agoI don't see the problem with other people's taste. Not sure why you have such a problem with it either. I mean, your handle is solipsism instead of hnreader7381648 because you like the word even though someone else may think it's an uninteresting word from a first year philosophy syllabus.
- tvmalsv 10y agoYou would probably still want to be selective about which tattoos you get and where they are placed. Each session can create scar tissue which could be noticeable even if the ink fades completely, and it can be harder to tattoo over scar tissue as well. Scarring isn't guaranteed, and to a large extent depends on the artist knowing what they're doing, but still something to consider.
- chipotle2 10y agoYup. The prevalence of scars is also fairly unknown because, well, the tattoos are covering them up.
- lj3 10y agoWouldn't the scars show up after laser removal, effectively making laser removal moot?
- CydeWeys 10y agoScars are skin color though, not pigment color. Also they're not nearly as fine as the original tattoo was. What had bene an easily discernible intricate design in a high contrast color will end up as an indiscernible mush of near-skin-tone scar tissue, like a low degree burn that's healed.
- danieltillett 10y agoScarring is very specific to the individual based on their genetics and is not just due to the artist knowing what they are doing.
- BurningFrog 10y agoIt would be really helpful to tattoo the current year on my arm each NYE!
- tomsaffell 10y agozero-based indexing giving you an 'off by one' problem?
- eachro 10y agoIf you only need it for NYE, you can just stick with those temporary tattoos from party favor stores.
- jqm 10y agoIf indeed it's gone one year to the day later.
- cmdrfred 10y agoIt has been fun to watch this previously considered so dangerous become so mainstream. Something like this and you'll have tween girls having tattoo parties.
- gjolund 10y agoIf it didn't leave scar tissue I could see people getting tattoos that evolve over time, where an artist re-works a patch of skin every year. Imagine fashion week 2050 where models are rocking temp tattoos designed to last the season. Could be rad, could also be really obnoxious.
- steele 10y agoI guess the market is there but I bet there are better applications than tattooing. Disappearing ink probably isn't worth the discomfort for many tattoos. But hey, tattoo ink isn't exactly the most innovative space so it's cool to see a fresh idea
- supercoder 10y agoThis sucks for everyone with the old permanent model
- nostalgiac 10y agoI don't see how at all. Everyone (including myself) that has been tattooed KNOWS they were going to be permanent before they got them. If they wanted a removable option they wouldn't have got them in the first place. A lot of the appeal of tattoos is because of their permanence and the commitment that resembles.
- tacon 10y agoAbout ten years ago, I remember an article about a special tattoo ink that was encased in laser-sensitive capsules. When irradiated, the capsules burst and the ink was absorbed virtually completely. The thing that outraged me was that they were having a hard time selling it, as tattoo "artists" were refusing to have their "creations" be removed at the user's behest. Most artists were even refusing to tell their customers that removable ink was an option. Since criminals don't have resumes, tattoos used to be their signaling mechanisms. As suburban kids began to make that signalling useless, a few years ago I read that criminals had moved on to painful eyelid tattoos. A quick Google search shows that didn't slow the posers down very much. I wonder how criminals signal how badass they are these days?
- rfrey 10y agoIf this really works, getting a tattoo will be no more edgy than getting your hair dyed. Tattoos will rapidly fall out of fashion.
- danieltillett 10y agoTattoos will fall out of fashion no matter what happens.
- burfog 10y agoThey are gross. OTOH, I kind of like how they warn me about people who make rash decisions. I'd love to see a proper study of how well tattoos correlate with drug use, STDs, assault, debt, obesity, single parenting, failure to use a seatbelt, tooth decay, low-pay college degree choices, and other indicators of short-term thinking.
- SolaceQuantum 10y agoSingle parenting and low-pay college degree choices aren't necessarily short term thinking, nor is obesity or tooth decay. Or debt. I think there is a wide brush and a lot of assumptions being made here, many of which can be harmful. For just one example, it's quite common for single parenting to actually just be a result of successfully escaping an abusive relationship.
- burfog 10y agoSure, "aren't necessarily", but likely to be strongly predictable. None of the things I list are 100% caused by anything, but lots of things in life can predict other things. For a real eye-opener, check what OkCupid's data says about people who like the taste of beer! For example, getting into that relationship in the first place was...? Were you ignoring warning signs and not really thinking about how reliable the other person might be in the long term? (if it isn't directly your fault, you probably chose unwisely, not thinking of the long-term chances) Failure to avoid health consequences is often short-term thinking. Look, we all know what happens if you live on soda and chips. Despite this, some people don't think ahead, or they "think" but fail to resist the urge. There are lots of reasons for debt. It could be a freak accident. Much of the time though, it was short-term thinking. You didn't save for the future, preferring instead to spend when you could.
- aortega 10y agoIt would be interesting to see all the failed non-disappearing tattoo prototypes.
- khabaal 10y agoI am very skeptical about this, because when tattoo ink fades, it accumulates inside the lymphatic system, it is not flushed out of the body. Black ink, for example, colors the lymph nodes within the area of the tatoo completely black. Black ink is made out of soot which often contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, a carzinogen. So if they say their product is "designed to break down after a year" and "By using smaller molecules, we’ve encapsulated them inside this spherical structure that’s big enough that your immune system doesn’t take it away. But when you remove it, it essentially eats away one of the components and the dye molecules are flushed out", i really wonder if this could quickly develop into a real health problem. Smaller molecules really sound like nano particles and since tattoo dye is not flushed out of your body, i tend to assume those nano particles will accumulate inside the lymphatic system. And what about that "spherical structure" stuff, what is it made of? And that "removal solution" they talk about on their website, the symbol next to it looks like its also tattoed into the skin.