7 ms·

Yes. Also, there is nothing wrong (legally or morally) with avoiding taxation.

jedberg 10y ago
Legally there is nothing wrong with it. Morality depends on who you ask. Maybe for you it isn't wrong, and that's fine, but to others it is. That's why it is hard to judge morality -- because it is based in opinion, not fact.
- Randgalt 10y ago
  Morality is not hard at all. It just requires thinking objectively.
  - acbart 10y ago
    I assume that this is sarcasm?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
DanBC 10y ago
> legally Tax laws are so complex that we don't know if some tax avoidance schemes are legal or not. The accountants selling them claim they are legal. The tax authorities sometimes claim they're not legal. Ideally they'd go to court and get a ruling, but that's expensive and regulators tend to avoid court if possible (at least, in England they do) and so we have "agreements" where a scheme is deemed abusive and some amount of tax is repaid. There's no prosecution; no sentences; no convictions. These repayments are not fines. So it's hard to call that illegal.
- bpodgursky 10y ago
  > Tax laws are so complex that we don't know if some tax avoidance schemes are legal or not. That's the wrong way to phrase it. If you don't know if actions are legal or not, you are simply not living under the rule of law. There is no law, if you cannot reasonably figure out what the law is.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    I disagree. If there are both unambiguously permitted and unambiguously unpermitted cases, then there is very much law, even if there is a gray area where reasonable people can disagree with what is allowed and what is permitted. That's not to say that the ambiguities may not still be problematic, but they don't make the whole structure into "non-law".
forgotmysn 10y ago
there's nothing morally wrong with avoiding taxation if you have no sense of community
- rfrey 10y ago
  But if I deduct my tuition fees (which I can do in Canada, where I am), I am avoiding taxation. Also if I deduct the money I donate to the Red Cross. So we have to be specific about which ways of "avoiding taxation" are wrong and which ways are not morally wrong. As far as I know, we call that "tax law".
  - forgotmysn 10y ago
    filing appropriately =/ hiding funds that the law states should be taxed. deducting tuition is filing honestly. investing funds into a corporate entity and then having that entity issue you a loan, though legal, is immoral. it's hoarding funds at the expense of the community. im not saying that people should or shouldnt pay taxes on X or Y income, or that our current tax system is perfect, but i dont think the moral line here is as hard to draw as you're trying to make it
    - rfrey 10y ago
      "that the law states should be taxed" "though legal, is immoral" There is the problem... the law is an expression of what is acceptable. If we start saying "though legal, immoral", then things become far too discretionary. Instead of something obvious, like tuition, let's say I deduct donations to a registered charity that gets accused of financing terrorism. Should I be prosecuted for avoiding tax in a legal though immoral way? Some people would say giving all one's money to a church, and deducting those donations, is an immoral avoidance of tax. All we have to go on is the expression of the community's moral taste through the law.
      - forgotmysn 10y ago
        No. They wouldn't. You keep trying to equate tax exemption with tax avoidance, and you're still wrong for doing so. A Church is a community organization, and is exclusively community-funded. Asking not to be taxed on income donated to any community focused org is reasonable in anyone's eyes. I don't think anyone is going to worry about taxation if the org you donate to goes on to fund a terrorist attack or organization. There is a difference between requesting exemption from taxation on income that is donated to community orgs, because ultimately that money goes back to the community, whether through taxation or philanthropy. Creating a shell corporation in the Cayman Islands, with an anonymous board of directors based in Switzerland, and dumping all of your liquid assets into said fund, which then purchases all of your non-liquid assets, is clearly tax evasion. What you seem to fail to comprehend is where the money ends up and why. Whether money is taxed or donated, it goes back to the community, where everyone should give a portion of their income to. Hiding it, legally or illegally, to keep that money for yourself, is immoral and will hopefully be made illegal.
mindcrime 10y ago
Taxation is theft. Avoiding taxation is just self-defense. Personally I'm all for it, by any means necessary.

Legally there is nothing wrong with it. Morality depends on who you ask. Maybe for you it isn't wrong, and that's fine, but to others it is. That's why it is hard to judge morality -- because it is based in opinion, not fact.

Randgalt 10y ago
Morality is not hard at all. It just requires thinking objectively.
- acbart 10y ago
  I assume that this is sarcasm?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

DanBC 10y ago

> legally Tax laws are so complex that we don't know if some tax avoidance schemes are legal or not. The accountants selling them claim they are legal. The tax authorities sometimes claim they're not legal. Ideally they'd go to court and get a ruling, but that's expensive and regulators tend to avoid court if possible (at least, in England they do) and so we have "agreements" where a scheme is deemed abusive and some amount of tax is repaid. There's no prosecution; no sentences; no convictions. These repayments are not fines. So it's hard to call that illegal.

bpodgursky 10y ago
> Tax laws are so complex that we don't know if some tax avoidance schemes are legal or not. That's the wrong way to phrase it. If you don't know if actions are legal or not, you are simply not living under the rule of law. There is no law, if you cannot reasonably figure out what the law is.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  I disagree. If there are both unambiguously permitted and unambiguously unpermitted cases, then there is very much law, even if there is a gray area where reasonable people can disagree with what is allowed and what is permitted. That's not to say that the ambiguities may not still be problematic, but they don't make the whole structure into "non-law".

forgotmysn 10y ago

there's nothing morally wrong with avoiding taxation if you have no sense of community

rfrey 10y ago
But if I deduct my tuition fees (which I can do in Canada, where I am), I am avoiding taxation. Also if I deduct the money I donate to the Red Cross. So we have to be specific about which ways of "avoiding taxation" are wrong and which ways are not morally wrong. As far as I know, we call that "tax law".
- forgotmysn 10y ago
  filing appropriately =/ hiding funds that the law states should be taxed. deducting tuition is filing honestly. investing funds into a corporate entity and then having that entity issue you a loan, though legal, is immoral. it's hoarding funds at the expense of the community. im not saying that people should or shouldnt pay taxes on X or Y income, or that our current tax system is perfect, but i dont think the moral line here is as hard to draw as you're trying to make it
  - rfrey 10y ago
    "that the law states should be taxed" "though legal, is immoral" There is the problem... the law is an expression of what is acceptable. If we start saying "though legal, immoral", then things become far too discretionary. Instead of something obvious, like tuition, let's say I deduct donations to a registered charity that gets accused of financing terrorism. Should I be prosecuted for avoiding tax in a legal though immoral way? Some people would say giving all one's money to a church, and deducting those donations, is an immoral avoidance of tax. All we have to go on is the expression of the community's moral taste through the law.
    - forgotmysn 10y ago
      No. They wouldn't. You keep trying to equate tax exemption with tax avoidance, and you're still wrong for doing so. A Church is a community organization, and is exclusively community-funded. Asking not to be taxed on income donated to any community focused org is reasonable in anyone's eyes. I don't think anyone is going to worry about taxation if the org you donate to goes on to fund a terrorist attack or organization. There is a difference between requesting exemption from taxation on income that is donated to community orgs, because ultimately that money goes back to the community, whether through taxation or philanthropy. Creating a shell corporation in the Cayman Islands, with an anonymous board of directors based in Switzerland, and dumping all of your liquid assets into said fund, which then purchases all of your non-liquid assets, is clearly tax evasion. What you seem to fail to comprehend is where the money ends up and why. Whether money is taxed or donated, it goes back to the community, where everyone should give a portion of their income to. Hiding it, legally or illegally, to keep that money for yourself, is immoral and will hopefully be made illegal.

mindcrime 10y ago

Taxation is theft. Avoiding taxation is just self-defense. Personally I'm all for it, by any means necessary.