10 ms·

I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my b

by lowglow 10y ago

I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my burn rate, I lived as cheaply as possible. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut, and it looks and feels dehumanizing. I wasn't completely broke but I couldn't keep affording rent as expensive as it was. I was able to shower at a gym, and worked out of Tech Shop on what I was trying to build. But it's hard -- like super hard to just be homeless. The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. I would often hear, "But you don't seem like the type to be homeless" and then they would slowly just distance themselves from talking to me. Super weird. I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. Sleeping in a van sucks too. Street noises keep you up, cramped for space, etc. On the up side there is a contingent of tech people that are doing the same thing, so I had the pleasure of meeting some others like myself. I've never taken up the opportunity of food, shelter, or clothing offered by the city, because frankly I'm doing this on my own accord, so I can't speak to how that part of the system helps people get back on their feet. After this entire experience my heart breaks every time I see a fellow human having to resort to sleeping in the cold, wet, outdoors with no shelter and nothing but some cardboard and discarded newspapers to cover up with. I often wonder how close I could have come to being completely broken by this decision, and what coincidences led someone down this path. In the end it has helped me understand that we must all care more for one another, no matter what.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
> I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut What would such a system look like? EDIT: Totally serious question. To build something, you must first architect it.
- lowglow 10y ago
  I'm not sure, I think about that a lot. I've noticed a lot of homeless do carry cell phones, so maybe more free chargers, free and ubiquitous wifi? But that's dumb tech me talking. I think a lot of barriers just come from the social stigma of actually being homeless. So thinking reasonably, showers, laundry, snacks or meals? A place where one could feel human and a part of the naturally accepted society again.
  - Kluny 10y ago
    I've heard of these places they have in Japan where you can pay a daily fee to get inside and use the facilities. They consist of: hot showers books, movies, wifi that you can use while you're there soup on tap vending machines with healthy options exercise machines Sounds like a brilliant idea that would benefit homeless people, those in marginal situations where it's not always safe to go home, and so-called "normals" all at once, thus serving everyone so as to prevent a stigma caused by their use.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  Isn't one big issue for homeless people that they need an address when applying for jobs, bank accounts etc. and don't have one. Maybe a place to help them, not only find an apply to jobs, but to use as an address, shower before the interview etc.
  - lowglow 10y ago
    I don't think you need an address for a bank account from what I've seen and read places. I would just ask a friend to use their address anyways.
    - k-mcgrady 10y ago
      When I try to make purchases online with debit card they often use address for verification and if it's incorrect the purchase fails. Not 100% sure it's necessary just to have a bank account though you may be right.
- aeorgnoieang 10y ago
  I'd start by legalizing every form of 'marginal' housing, e.g. boarding houses, micro-apartments. I have no idea where to start if one accepts the current political, legal, and cultural environment as-is. Assuming you did just accept the status quo as a given, I can better appreciate why the idea of 'just giving homeless people housing' is so enticing. [And there is evidence that it works well. I'm skeptical about the long-run costs and skewed incentives, especially in places in which lots of people want to live.]
  - lowglow 10y ago
    This would be huge. When researching, I couldn't believe sleeping in a vehicle was illegal. Building reasonable living accommodations -- no matter the size -- is absolutely something we must do for people.
    - aeorgnoieang 10y ago
      Housing policy, formal and informal, just drives me crazy. I despair that the future everywhere will look like third world countries, where only relatively wealthy people can afford to live in legal housing. Everyone else, maybe me too, will live in 'favelas'. Here's a great post about this by a blogger I really like on this topic: - [Spring In The Silicon Favela – Granola Shotgun](https://granolashotgun.com/2016/02/08/spring-in-the-silicon-favela/ https://granolashotgun.com/2016/02/08/spring-in-the-silicon-...) But on the plus side, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do once you stop playing by the rules!
  - marincounty 10y ago
    We need to offer free camping in federal, state, and county parks to citizens? We have a catastrophe that's just going to get worse. It is homelessness. We need to allow homeless to sleep in their vechicles, if said parking allows overnight parking. We need to build Kibbutz's. (Or just give them a field to pitch a tent? A outhouse? Anything? We need to stop making homelessness a crime. Every homeless person I know is camping illegially. They get tickets. They can't pay tickets. Tickets turn into felonies. It's just wrong. If Jesus appeared, he would be ticketed for a multitude of municipal/criminal violations in a matter of days?
- rubidium 10y ago
  There are three legs to that stool: stable living situation, stable job, stable transportation. Without all three you can't get better. There's a guy I know who runs a business employing homeless. His rule is he never fires anyone. He understands that without a home/transportation, it can be impossible to make it to work. That gives them one stable leg to try and build the rest of their life from.
  - abalashov 10y ago
    > His rule is he never fires anyone. Just out of curiosity: what about reasons unrelated to absenteeism, like some sort of gross misconduct, drug or alcohol abuse on the job, untenable behavioural or psychiatric issues stemming from that, etc?
    - rubidium 10y ago
      He requires that they go through professional treatment for whatever the issue is before they return to work. They're not fired, just required to do something before they can return. For example, one guy had HUGE anger management issues. When it came to blows for the xth time, the manager pulled him aside, and said "I'm not going to fire you. I don't fire people. But you can only come back here when I've gotten a call from a counseling professional (he gave a number of one) and they tell me you've been through a successful treatment." It took six months, but he got the call and the guy came back to working. Apparently been one of the best employees ever since.
- zyxley 10y ago
  Step 1: Give homeless people a home. As Utah found, just giving homeless people a home, without demanding any substantial money or qualification or whatever from them for it, reduced the number of long-time homeless by a huge percentage and in the process saved net money for the state because of reduced medical and policing costs. http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...
  - chimeracoder 10y ago
    > Step 1: Give homeless people a home. This is one step, but it's not a silver bullet. New York City has had a similar program for a long time, and it's actually come under fire from homeless advocacy groups for being ineffective (while simultaneously expensive). New York City also poses a greater challenge than Salt Lake City for a number of reasons, but so does San Francisco, so solving SF's homelessness problem will require more than just building more housing and giving it to homeless people, even if that's ultimately one step of the solution.
    - aeorgnoieang 10y ago
      In a very real sense it's crazy to give people free housing in the world's most expensive locations. And it's kinda unfair too – the only people that get those units are lottery winners. From the perspective of wanting to do the most good with our limited resources, paying for housing in SF or NYC, let alone SLC, is probably pretty stupid.
- Mz 10y ago
  You would need to provide services that were as middle class as possible and help them find real solutions to their specific problems. I do blog a bit in hopes of helping other homeless people find viable solutions and bootstrap themselves. http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ I have a second blog with very little content where I try to talk about What Helps The Homeless: http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ A far, far better approach is to work on a) providing more senior and student housing -- aka affordable housing, but aimed at single people and childless couples and not marketed as "affordable" because that means "Built for poor people!" and that is always a terrible idea b) promoting walkable communities and c) helping people who can't fit a "regular" job to find a means to support themselves with some kind of paid work (freelance, part time, whatever). Homeless people are just people. Once they get off the street, they are again simply referred to as people. You wind up homeless when your problems outrun your ability to cope. The difference between a homeless person and person in housing can be as little as one more problem or one less resource. Some particular thread snaps, it all comes unraveled. Trying to reverse that after the fact is a lot harder than trying to prevent it from happening to begin with (aka "A stitch in time saves nine"). But most people don't really want to hear that. Building more affordable housing (or otherwise trying to make society work better for ordinary people) doesn't feel heroic enough. It doesn't have the same rush of adrenaline of talking about getting people off the street after their lives have gone to hell.
blackguardx 10y ago
Why was living in San Francisco so important to getting your prototype built? Friendships, community, family? I wonder why more people don't choose to move to places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo where housing is dirt cheap. There aren't many jobs there, but if you are working for yourself it shouldn't really matter.
- latortuga 10y ago
  In terms of major cities, San Francisco is among the best choices in terms of year-round weather. Snow, subzero temperatures, and associated clothing needs would definitely be much more problematic in your suggested cities.
  - lowglow 10y ago
    Yeah, even sleeping through the winter down in Palo Alto was a little tough with a sleeping bag + comforter.
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Equivalently, being outside during the day in areas hotter than Palo Alto is ludicrously taxing in pretty much every way. The Bay is very kind to Homo sapiens, in terms of climate.
      - abalashov 10y ago
        [Atlanta native here] Tell me about it, and don't forget to mention the humidity--a factor 5x more important than temperature per se, in my eyes. If I had to be in the hot sun, I'd take 100F in Phoenix over even 70F in Atlanta _any_ day.
      - marincounty 10y ago
        It has some pretty severe microclimates. After a good rain, I have seen some pretty miserable homeless people. They are wet, and cold. They don't have the right camping equipment. In my little city, we lost three people this winter--that I know of. They died from hypothermia to pneumonia. I kinda knew one guy. He didn't like to tell people he was homeless. He was actually a former Programmer. He was instrumental in the developement of Word Star, but only got a wage, and a footnote in the program's history. When he did let his guard down, he would always say one thing over the years. "I just don't want to die on the streets, over a chest infection." I didn't see him for awhile. I thought he might have moved. I found out, one night, at Starbucks, he died on the streets in front of the police station, of a pneumonia. No service. Nothing. He was a only child. He's just gone. No drug use. No health problems prior to being homeless.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
I'm not trying to be rude when asking this but why would you choose to become homeless to prototype a business/product?? I've seen this come up several times on HN over the last few years and every time it blows my mind, especially when the person then goes on to talk about how difficult life is. I'm guessing you're in tech as you're on HN - why not keep your day job and work on your business from 7pm-3am every night. Save some money while you do this and then leave your job when you can afford to? It seems like a lot of tech folks have adopted the whole starving artist approach to starting a business when it is entirely unnecessary. I mean, even if you don't want to be an employee and want to focus on your product, move somewhere inexpensive, work freelance a few hours a day to support yourself. It just seems insane to me that anyone in this industry would choose to be homeless when they really don't have to. If a lot of people are making this choice voluntarily I'd say there's a major problem in the industry and how people view the path to a successful business.
- lowglow 10y ago
  For me I've noticed a huge difference in creativity and authenticity in my products when I've devoted 100% of myself to it. There is a major problem in the industry. There is no one path to a successful business. I find my time is more valuable than my comfort. To each their own.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    I can understand your point but you're not just giving up comfort - you're giving up something we all consider a basic necessity: shelter. I'm willing to bet the end result of your work, whether you do it your way, or do it part time, will be the same. I don't want to come off condescending but the attitude (and it's not unique to you, I've seen many other people with a similar attitude) seems like that of someone who has been brainwashed by the SF/SV startup culture mythology.
    - joslin01 10y ago
      His Dodge Caravan is shelter, which is pretty fancy shelter if you were from a poor village in Africa so I think he'll be alright. If he's not brainwashed by pain = gain, then I think what he's doing is really cool.
padmanabhan01 10y ago
>I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my burn rate, I lived as cheaply as possible. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut, and it looks and feels dehumanizing. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone who has enough skills to "build things" has enough skills to get an average software job. So, just curious, did you choose to build things and be homeless instead of getting a mundane software job and not be homeless?
- lowglow 10y ago
  Correct. I had decided what I wanted to do with the time I have.
  - padmanabhan01 10y ago
    Aren't you hijacking the topic of homelessness here then? When people say homeless they don't mean someone who is homeless out of choice and can get out of it whenever they want to?
    - lowglow 10y ago
      I'm just relaying my experiences and what I've seen.
      - e12e 10y ago
        I think your comment was informative. It kind of reminds me of "There, but for Fortune", by Phil Ochs: Show me an alley, show me a train Show me a hobo who sleeps out in the rain And I'll show you a young man with many reasons why And there but for fortune, may go you or I Especially in countries with (dare I say) primitive social security, going intentionally homeless could quickly become a permanent thing. A broken down car and a medical emergency, a family tragedy -- and coming back might suddenly become an insurmountable obstacle. Difficult to get a job without a place to stay, difficult to get a place to stay without money, difficult to get money without a job...
Swizec 10y ago
> The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. That's why you call yourself a digital nomad. Instead of people distancing themselves, you get people asking "Wooow how do you do that? I would love to do that? What's it like?". As a homeless person with a van, you probably have a more permanent base than most digital nomads. Or at least more than what I did when I was nomading more properly. (and yes, I do miss it)
return0 10y ago
> I've never taken up the opportunity of food, shelter, or clothing offered by the city, because frankly I'm doing this on my own accord, so I can't speak to how that part of the system helps people get back on their feet. I think you don't qualify as a homeless. You 're living in a van. There's a reason people prefer homes to a van. I can't fathom what is so pressing that makes you sleep in a van instead of moving to a much cheaper area.
- Mz 10y ago
  I have never heard of a homeless services center that would not count sleeping in a van as homeless.
  - RyJones 10y ago
    When I was homeless, I lived in my car. I lived like a king compared to those actually sleeping rough. I frequently slept near/at the Burnside Project (PDX), and saw many far worse off. I had a water tight heated home that I moved whenever I wanted.
    - Mz 10y ago
      My father and ex husband were both career military. I never slept in a tent before I went homeless, but I had heard enough stories about keeping warm, dry, or whatever while out in the wilderness. I have never once slept on a sidewalk. I hike out to a patch of wilderness every single night. Where I currently sleep, there are deer and coyotes (a few minutes walk from a paved road). I blog about my experiences in part because I feel strongly that homelessness does not need to be as rough as it obviously is for so many people. Humans are food and got sleep well before modern housing was invented. I feel strongly that putting out information can go a long way towards lowering artificial barriers for homeless Americans and helping them maintain ties to society in a way that can make it easier for them to get back off the street.
      - Mz 10y ago
        Missed the edit window. Obviously, that should say "Humans ate food..." not "Humans are food... Whoops!
Razengan 10y ago
> I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. Sleeping in a van sucks too. Street noises keep you up, cramped for space, etc Would moving into the woods and "living off the land" have been an option? Is this even legally possible anymore in the United States? * Assuming you had solar-generated electricity and internet access.
- chiph 10y ago
  You would need to own the land, or arrange a lease with the owner. Otherwise you're trespassing and that can result in arrest or being shot. I'm not saying that you can't do this (there are people living in remote portions of national parks), but there can be severe downsides. Like ending up like Christopher McCandless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless
  - mindslight 10y ago
    Living in a US national park (on land you don't own) would be illegal. Rangers also seem hyper-paranoid about remote areas being used for drug cultivation. I believe national forests have a technical time limit on how long you can stay there. Maybe BLM land?
    - chiph 10y ago
      Druggies could be a problem - there are stories of booby-traps and tripwires laid by the growers to protect their crops. So you certainly don't want to stumble across one. The only BLM land I personally know of is in Nevada/Arizona/New Mexico, and you can't really grow anything on it (it's desert). Looks like there's also land in eastern Oregon, Idaho, Utah, etc. so if you can tolerate cold winters... http://www.blm.gov/or/about/images/landsmap-large.gif http://www.blm.gov/or/about/images/landsmap-large.gif Even on BLM land, someone is eventually going to stop by and pay a visit to see what you're up to.
    - adrianpike 10y ago
      It's 16 days per campsite, and your sites have to be 5 miles apart. So every two weeks you pack up, move a few miles, and set camp back up again.
dceddia 10y ago
You seem open to questions so I'll ask :) I've always wondered -- if you're living in a van, and you don't like where you are (food is expensive, winter is coming, etc), why not just drive somewhere else? I don't even mean across the country. I mean just 4 hours north or south or east. There are cheaper places to be in California than SF, aren't there? It seems you could spend the year driving up and down the coast as cost/weather permits. And I don't mean daily. The fuel costs would get prohibitive at some point...
- lowglow 10y ago
  I did. I worked in Redwood City, slept in Palo Alto (because it's legal to sleep in your car there). I tried to stay within the confines of the law as much as possible because I didn't need the extra hassle.
whatever_dude 10y ago
Thanks for sharing. Great food for thought.
atarian 10y ago
I've been seriously considering living out of a van with basic amenities like a propane stove and solar. I was pretty much set on doing this 100%, but one of my close friends talked me down to like 90%. Do you feel the impact to sleep/well-being is worth the freedom you get to work on your prototype?
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  In case you're someone who usually sleeps pretty well, I would caution against talking poor quality of sleep too lightly. Forget the impact to your health, it can fuck up pretty much everything about your life, including your productivity (partly negating one of the reasons you'd be doing it in the first place).
stcredzero 10y ago
I wasn't completely broke but I couldn't keep affording rent as expensive as it was. I was able to shower at a gym, and worked out of Tech Shop on what I was trying to build. But it's hard -- like super hard to just be homeless. The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. I would often hear, "But you don't seem like the type to be homeless" and then they would slowly just distance themselves from talking to me. Super weird. I've been in such a position following an abusive employment/housing situation. What you say completely rings true. I think there's a partially neurologically wired category of "other" in our brains that is meant to make us super cautious of rootless individuals. Even in our nomadic hunter-gatherer days, we had good reason to be suspect of individuals who didn't have group membership. (Effectively a "home.")
- kaeluka 10y ago
  You won't slap me in the face because you've got something to lose. A house, family, job, .. Someone homeless hasn't! edit: typo corrected!
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    No. Please believe me, you still have something to lose. (BTW, lose != loose)
    - kaeluka 10y ago
      I was not clear: I wanted to say that this is how I think the "reasoning" goes. Obviously, almost everyone has got something to lose.
- jonnathanson 10y ago
  That, and I think a lot of it is also pattern matching. When we hear that someone is homeless, we compare that person to the mental image we have of the homeless people we've encountered on the streets. One of the great tragedies of our society is that we've allowed our mentally ill to slip through the cracks. Untreated schizophrenics and PTSD-suffering Vietnam veterans may or may not make up a significant percentage of the homeless we see -- but they're certainly the most memorable. They stand out. They ingrain, in passersby, a mental map of homeless people as "crazy," or "violent," or "dangerous." And so we start to believe that homeless people are broken somehow. Many people go a step further; they start to regard the homeless as less than human. These pattern matches are powerful blocks on empathy for many, many people.
scythe 10y ago
You could, at least, rent a place somewhere very cheap (Lodi?) and visit it only occasionally, while living out of your car in the Bay Area. It might ultimately be more sustainable, especially if you're open to having a "roommate" or two (who probably wouldn't mind you being gone a lot!). I spent a year paying $233/month for an attic room in Atlanta (and I lived there), so the opportunities exist.
e40 10y ago
A cautionary tale of what this can lead to: My brother's startup wasn't bring in much money and there was always the near promise it would. He went through all his savings and retirement funds and went close to $100k into CC debt. This was a swing of +$1m to -$70k. Yes, he had a problem (unacknowledged, btw) that was more dire than yours. Just be aware that this stuff can get out of control, if you let it. After getting to the -$70k state, he asked me and my parents for money to continue. We all refused because we knew that our money would be like the $1m+ he had already gone through. We told him to get a job. He refused. He couch surfed for a while. After 6+ months doing that he realized, because his family had abandoned him, he would have to get a job. He did ($155k/yr). He started a month ago. He's angry at the family and won't talk with us now. Ironically, he admitted that he wouldn't have the job now, which he needs, if we had given him money last year. However, that doesn't matter. He still maintains he did the right thing and we didn't support him. It's been a sad year for my parents and me. Actually, sad few years, since we all saw this coming (and tried to prevent it, but he only got angry at us for being "negative"). It was personally hard for me to let him go right to the brink of being on the street. I did it because giving him money would have drained my resources, and for no reason. His reality distortion field was so strong, he would not listen to anyone.
- simonebrunozzi 10y ago
  Sorry to hear this. I love my Brother to death, and I can't imagine going through what you went through with yours. I hope things will get better.
- everlost 10y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what was the idea behind his startup? I've been avoiding getting a job along the same lines, but can never imagine going into 100k debt for a startup obsession.
  - e40 10y ago
    I don't want to say too much, because I don't want him to find this, but it was a web service for a popular non-profit. It helped them manage costs of a certain nature. It was definitely a good idea, but the non-profit is notoriously stingy, and the sales cycle was very, very long. So far they've only sold one copy. I think the obsession he had scared off some investors, but mainly I think they didn't see a big exit. He had a partner, but the partner got a job years ago, because he had a wife and kids he needed to feed.
Mz 10y ago
I am on the street for health reasons, not to start a business (and getting pretty grumpy about it), but if you find it that hard cope, you might want to check out my blog: http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ People do realize I am homeless if they see me often enough, but they don't realize it upon meeting me the first time. I am less open about it than I used to be, because fuck prejudice and what judgey, uncampassionate, unhelpful assholes the vast majority of people are. Best of luck.
- chinathrow 10y ago
  Thanks for your link, checking it out now. How do you get by these days? How can we help?
  - Mz 10y ago
    I do freelance work, when I am well enough. I am developing a number of web projects. I left San Diego County about a year ago and moved someplace cheaper within California and things are still hard, but it has been some months since anyone hassled me for being homeless. That is partly because this is a nicer area, partly that I look more middle class than I used to. If you want to help, there is a tip jar on the site. (You can click on $1 and then enter any number you like.) Money is always useful. Promoting my work in some way so I get more traffic would also be appreciated. Thanks!
- openasocket 10y ago
  I don't mean to pry, but what do you mean by "on the street for health reasons"? I'm trying to think of a medical condition that could be helped by being homeless, and am drawing a blank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?
  - Mz 10y ago
    The super short version is that I was living in a crappy apartment with mold issues, among other things. I have a serious medical condition that makes me particularly sensitive to things like that. Sleeping in a tent among greenery has helped my health enormously. I am now well enough that getting back into housing would make sense. But it needs to be real estate I own and have control over, so I can rip out carpeting, or whatever, if necessary. It cannot be rental housing and it cannot be a trailer. So, it will be challenging to arrange.
dzmien 10y ago
Being homeless with a vehicle to live in is nothing like being homeless without one. I really don't even think it is the same thing. I've been homeless on a number of occasions (related to addiction, I am now in recovery), and I have done it with and without a vehicle. There is absolutely no comparison between having to sleep on the street and having a vehicle to sleep in, especially during the fall/winter in seasonal areas. I would absolutely live in a converted van if it meant saving money. Sadly, I don't have a van to convert ;-)
louprado 10y ago
It's the quality of sleep that is the biggest concern. Sleeping poorly affects your productivity, creativity, and your health. The social isolation is also bad for all the above since it will likely lead to depression. Seriously, once I rented someone's large closet in Phoenix for $100 a month when I needed to save money. I showered in the gym and stayed in my office all day. Even in the most expensive cities someone will take a "ghost roommate" for $500 a month; pennies compared to cost of a physical/mental health related disorder.
lighttower 10y ago
Yours, sir, is one of the most human statements I've read in recent years.
LulzSect 10y ago
http://i.imgur.com/WHWB4Kkh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/WHWB4Kkh.jpg Minutes ago

by lowglow 10y ago

toomuchtodo 10y ago

> I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut What would such a system look like? EDIT: Totally serious question. To build something, you must first architect it.

lowglow 10y ago
I'm not sure, I think about that a lot. I've noticed a lot of homeless do carry cell phones, so maybe more free chargers, free and ubiquitous wifi? But that's dumb tech me talking. I think a lot of barriers just come from the social stigma of actually being homeless. So thinking reasonably, showers, laundry, snacks or meals? A place where one could feel human and a part of the naturally accepted society again.
- Kluny 10y ago
  I've heard of these places they have in Japan where you can pay a daily fee to get inside and use the facilities. They consist of: hot showers books, movies, wifi that you can use while you're there soup on tap vending machines with healthy options exercise machines Sounds like a brilliant idea that would benefit homeless people, those in marginal situations where it's not always safe to go home, and so-called "normals" all at once, thus serving everyone so as to prevent a stigma caused by their use.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
Isn't one big issue for homeless people that they need an address when applying for jobs, bank accounts etc. and don't have one. Maybe a place to help them, not only find an apply to jobs, but to use as an address, shower before the interview etc.
- lowglow 10y ago
  I don't think you need an address for a bank account from what I've seen and read places. I would just ask a friend to use their address anyways.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    When I try to make purchases online with debit card they often use address for verification and if it's incorrect the purchase fails. Not 100% sure it's necessary just to have a bank account though you may be right.
aeorgnoieang 10y ago
I'd start by legalizing every form of 'marginal' housing, e.g. boarding houses, micro-apartments. I have no idea where to start if one accepts the current political, legal, and cultural environment as-is. Assuming you did just accept the status quo as a given, I can better appreciate why the idea of 'just giving homeless people housing' is so enticing. [And there is evidence that it works well. I'm skeptical about the long-run costs and skewed incentives, especially in places in which lots of people want to live.]
- lowglow 10y ago
  This would be huge. When researching, I couldn't believe sleeping in a vehicle was illegal. Building reasonable living accommodations -- no matter the size -- is absolutely something we must do for people.
  - aeorgnoieang 10y ago
    Housing policy, formal and informal, just drives me crazy. I despair that the future everywhere will look like third world countries, where only relatively wealthy people can afford to live in legal housing. Everyone else, maybe me too, will live in 'favelas'. Here's a great post about this by a blogger I really like on this topic: - [Spring In The Silicon Favela – Granola Shotgun](https://granolashotgun.com/2016/02/08/spring-in-the-silicon-favela/ https://granolashotgun.com/2016/02/08/spring-in-the-silicon-...) But on the plus side, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do once you stop playing by the rules!
- marincounty 10y ago
  We need to offer free camping in federal, state, and county parks to citizens? We have a catastrophe that's just going to get worse. It is homelessness. We need to allow homeless to sleep in their vechicles, if said parking allows overnight parking. We need to build Kibbutz's. (Or just give them a field to pitch a tent? A outhouse? Anything? We need to stop making homelessness a crime. Every homeless person I know is camping illegially. They get tickets. They can't pay tickets. Tickets turn into felonies. It's just wrong. If Jesus appeared, he would be ticketed for a multitude of municipal/criminal violations in a matter of days?
rubidium 10y ago
There are three legs to that stool: stable living situation, stable job, stable transportation. Without all three you can't get better. There's a guy I know who runs a business employing homeless. His rule is he never fires anyone. He understands that without a home/transportation, it can be impossible to make it to work. That gives them one stable leg to try and build the rest of their life from.
- abalashov 10y ago
  > His rule is he never fires anyone. Just out of curiosity: what about reasons unrelated to absenteeism, like some sort of gross misconduct, drug or alcohol abuse on the job, untenable behavioural or psychiatric issues stemming from that, etc?
  - rubidium 10y ago
    He requires that they go through professional treatment for whatever the issue is before they return to work. They're not fired, just required to do something before they can return. For example, one guy had HUGE anger management issues. When it came to blows for the xth time, the manager pulled him aside, and said "I'm not going to fire you. I don't fire people. But you can only come back here when I've gotten a call from a counseling professional (he gave a number of one) and they tell me you've been through a successful treatment." It took six months, but he got the call and the guy came back to working. Apparently been one of the best employees ever since.
zyxley 10y ago
Step 1: Give homeless people a home. As Utah found, just giving homeless people a home, without demanding any substantial money or qualification or whatever from them for it, reduced the number of long-time homeless by a huge percentage and in the process saved net money for the state because of reduced medical and policing costs. http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > Step 1: Give homeless people a home. This is one step, but it's not a silver bullet. New York City has had a similar program for a long time, and it's actually come under fire from homeless advocacy groups for being ineffective (while simultaneously expensive). New York City also poses a greater challenge than Salt Lake City for a number of reasons, but so does San Francisco, so solving SF's homelessness problem will require more than just building more housing and giving it to homeless people, even if that's ultimately one step of the solution.
  - aeorgnoieang 10y ago
    In a very real sense it's crazy to give people free housing in the world's most expensive locations. And it's kinda unfair too – the only people that get those units are lottery winners. From the perspective of wanting to do the most good with our limited resources, paying for housing in SF or NYC, let alone SLC, is probably pretty stupid.
Mz 10y ago
You would need to provide services that were as middle class as possible and help them find real solutions to their specific problems. I do blog a bit in hopes of helping other homeless people find viable solutions and bootstrap themselves. http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ I have a second blog with very little content where I try to talk about What Helps The Homeless: http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ http://whathelpsthehomeless.blogspot.com/ A far, far better approach is to work on a) providing more senior and student housing -- aka affordable housing, but aimed at single people and childless couples and not marketed as "affordable" because that means "Built for poor people!" and that is always a terrible idea b) promoting walkable communities and c) helping people who can't fit a "regular" job to find a means to support themselves with some kind of paid work (freelance, part time, whatever). Homeless people are just people. Once they get off the street, they are again simply referred to as people. You wind up homeless when your problems outrun your ability to cope. The difference between a homeless person and person in housing can be as little as one more problem or one less resource. Some particular thread snaps, it all comes unraveled. Trying to reverse that after the fact is a lot harder than trying to prevent it from happening to begin with (aka "A stitch in time saves nine"). But most people don't really want to hear that. Building more affordable housing (or otherwise trying to make society work better for ordinary people) doesn't feel heroic enough. It doesn't have the same rush of adrenaline of talking about getting people off the street after their lives have gone to hell.

blackguardx 10y ago

Why was living in San Francisco so important to getting your prototype built? Friendships, community, family? I wonder why more people don't choose to move to places like Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo where housing is dirt cheap. There aren't many jobs there, but if you are working for yourself it shouldn't really matter.

latortuga 10y ago
In terms of major cities, San Francisco is among the best choices in terms of year-round weather. Snow, subzero temperatures, and associated clothing needs would definitely be much more problematic in your suggested cities.
- lowglow 10y ago
  Yeah, even sleeping through the winter down in Palo Alto was a little tough with a sleeping bag + comforter.
  - ethanbond 10y ago
    Equivalently, being outside during the day in areas hotter than Palo Alto is ludicrously taxing in pretty much every way. The Bay is very kind to Homo sapiens, in terms of climate.
    - abalashov 10y ago
      [Atlanta native here] Tell me about it, and don't forget to mention the humidity--a factor 5x more important than temperature per se, in my eyes. If I had to be in the hot sun, I'd take 100F in Phoenix over even 70F in Atlanta _any_ day.
    - marincounty 10y ago
      It has some pretty severe microclimates. After a good rain, I have seen some pretty miserable homeless people. They are wet, and cold. They don't have the right camping equipment. In my little city, we lost three people this winter--that I know of. They died from hypothermia to pneumonia. I kinda knew one guy. He didn't like to tell people he was homeless. He was actually a former Programmer. He was instrumental in the developement of Word Star, but only got a wage, and a footnote in the program's history. When he did let his guard down, he would always say one thing over the years. "I just don't want to die on the streets, over a chest infection." I didn't see him for awhile. I thought he might have moved. I found out, one night, at Starbucks, he died on the streets in front of the police station, of a pneumonia. No service. Nothing. He was a only child. He's just gone. No drug use. No health problems prior to being homeless.

k-mcgrady 10y ago

I'm not trying to be rude when asking this but why would you choose to become homeless to prototype a business/product?? I've seen this come up several times on HN over the last few years and every time it blows my mind, especially when the person then goes on to talk about how difficult life is. I'm guessing you're in tech as you're on HN - why not keep your day job and work on your business from 7pm-3am every night. Save some money while you do this and then leave your job when you can afford to? It seems like a lot of tech folks have adopted the whole starving artist approach to starting a business when it is entirely unnecessary. I mean, even if you don't want to be an employee and want to focus on your product, move somewhere inexpensive, work freelance a few hours a day to support yourself. It just seems insane to me that anyone in this industry would choose to be homeless when they really don't have to. If a lot of people are making this choice voluntarily I'd say there's a major problem in the industry and how people view the path to a successful business.

lowglow 10y ago
For me I've noticed a huge difference in creativity and authenticity in my products when I've devoted 100% of myself to it. There is a major problem in the industry. There is no one path to a successful business. I find my time is more valuable than my comfort. To each their own.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  I can understand your point but you're not just giving up comfort - you're giving up something we all consider a basic necessity: shelter. I'm willing to bet the end result of your work, whether you do it your way, or do it part time, will be the same. I don't want to come off condescending but the attitude (and it's not unique to you, I've seen many other people with a similar attitude) seems like that of someone who has been brainwashed by the SF/SV startup culture mythology.
  - joslin01 10y ago
    His Dodge Caravan is shelter, which is pretty fancy shelter if you were from a poor village in Africa so I think he'll be alright. If he's not brainwashed by pain = gain, then I think what he's doing is really cool.

padmanabhan01 10y ago

>I recently sold everything I owned and started living out of my converted dodge caravan while I was prototyping what I wanted to build next. With an eye on my burn rate, I lived as cheaply as possible. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no natural system in place for homeless to get out of that rut, and it looks and feels dehumanizing. I think it's reasonable to assume that anyone who has enough skills to "build things" has enough skills to get an average software job. So, just curious, did you choose to build things and be homeless instead of getting a mundane software job and not be homeless?

lowglow 10y ago
Correct. I had decided what I wanted to do with the time I have.
- padmanabhan01 10y ago
  Aren't you hijacking the topic of homelessness here then? When people say homeless they don't mean someone who is homeless out of choice and can get out of it whenever they want to?
  - lowglow 10y ago
    I'm just relaying my experiences and what I've seen.
    - e12e 10y ago
      I think your comment was informative. It kind of reminds me of "There, but for Fortune", by Phil Ochs: Show me an alley, show me a train Show me a hobo who sleeps out in the rain And I'll show you a young man with many reasons why And there but for fortune, may go you or I Especially in countries with (dare I say) primitive social security, going intentionally homeless could quickly become a permanent thing. A broken down car and a medical emergency, a family tragedy -- and coming back might suddenly become an insurmountable obstacle. Difficult to get a job without a place to stay, difficult to get a place to stay without money, difficult to get money without a job...

Swizec 10y ago

> The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. That's why you call yourself a digital nomad. Instead of people distancing themselves, you get people asking "Wooow how do you do that? I would love to do that? What's it like?". As a homeless person with a van, you probably have a more permanent base than most digital nomads. Or at least more than what I did when I was nomading more properly. (and yes, I do miss it)

return0 10y ago

> I've never taken up the opportunity of food, shelter, or clothing offered by the city, because frankly I'm doing this on my own accord, so I can't speak to how that part of the system helps people get back on their feet. I think you don't qualify as a homeless. You 're living in a van. There's a reason people prefer homes to a van. I can't fathom what is so pressing that makes you sleep in a van instead of moving to a much cheaper area.

Mz 10y ago
I have never heard of a homeless services center that would not count sleeping in a van as homeless.
- RyJones 10y ago
  When I was homeless, I lived in my car. I lived like a king compared to those actually sleeping rough. I frequently slept near/at the Burnside Project (PDX), and saw many far worse off. I had a water tight heated home that I moved whenever I wanted.
  - Mz 10y ago
    My father and ex husband were both career military. I never slept in a tent before I went homeless, but I had heard enough stories about keeping warm, dry, or whatever while out in the wilderness. I have never once slept on a sidewalk. I hike out to a patch of wilderness every single night. Where I currently sleep, there are deer and coyotes (a few minutes walk from a paved road). I blog about my experiences in part because I feel strongly that homelessness does not need to be as rough as it obviously is for so many people. Humans are food and got sleep well before modern housing was invented. I feel strongly that putting out information can go a long way towards lowering artificial barriers for homeless Americans and helping them maintain ties to society in a way that can make it easier for them to get back off the street.
    - Mz 10y ago
      Missed the edit window. Obviously, that should say "Humans ate food..." not "Humans are food... Whoops!

Razengan 10y ago

> I have been harassed by cops, you feel extremely transient and embarrassed just to be alive at times. Sleeping in a van sucks too. Street noises keep you up, cramped for space, etc Would moving into the woods and "living off the land" have been an option? Is this even legally possible anymore in the United States? * Assuming you had solar-generated electricity and internet access.

chiph 10y ago
You would need to own the land, or arrange a lease with the owner. Otherwise you're trespassing and that can result in arrest or being shot. I'm not saying that you can't do this (there are people living in remote portions of national parks), but there can be severe downsides. Like ending up like Christopher McCandless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_McCandless
- mindslight 10y ago
  Living in a US national park (on land you don't own) would be illegal. Rangers also seem hyper-paranoid about remote areas being used for drug cultivation. I believe national forests have a technical time limit on how long you can stay there. Maybe BLM land?
  - chiph 10y ago
    Druggies could be a problem - there are stories of booby-traps and tripwires laid by the growers to protect their crops. So you certainly don't want to stumble across one. The only BLM land I personally know of is in Nevada/Arizona/New Mexico, and you can't really grow anything on it (it's desert). Looks like there's also land in eastern Oregon, Idaho, Utah, etc. so if you can tolerate cold winters... http://www.blm.gov/or/about/images/landsmap-large.gif http://www.blm.gov/or/about/images/landsmap-large.gif Even on BLM land, someone is eventually going to stop by and pay a visit to see what you're up to.
  - adrianpike 10y ago
    It's 16 days per campsite, and your sites have to be 5 miles apart. So every two weeks you pack up, move a few miles, and set camp back up again.

dceddia 10y ago

You seem open to questions so I'll ask :) I've always wondered -- if you're living in a van, and you don't like where you are (food is expensive, winter is coming, etc), why not just drive somewhere else? I don't even mean across the country. I mean just 4 hours north or south or east. There are cheaper places to be in California than SF, aren't there? It seems you could spend the year driving up and down the coast as cost/weather permits. And I don't mean daily. The fuel costs would get prohibitive at some point...

lowglow 10y ago
I did. I worked in Redwood City, slept in Palo Alto (because it's legal to sleep in your car there). I tried to stay within the confines of the law as much as possible because I didn't need the extra hassle.

whatever_dude 10y ago

Thanks for sharing. Great food for thought.

atarian 10y ago

I've been seriously considering living out of a van with basic amenities like a propane stove and solar. I was pretty much set on doing this 100%, but one of my close friends talked me down to like 90%. Do you feel the impact to sleep/well-being is worth the freedom you get to work on your prototype?

wutbrodo 10y ago
In case you're someone who usually sleeps pretty well, I would caution against talking poor quality of sleep too lightly. Forget the impact to your health, it can fuck up pretty much everything about your life, including your productivity (partly negating one of the reasons you'd be doing it in the first place).

stcredzero 10y ago

I wasn't completely broke but I couldn't keep affording rent as expensive as it was. I was able to shower at a gym, and worked out of Tech Shop on what I was trying to build. But it's hard -- like super hard to just be homeless. The social stigma associated with the word alone is hard for people to get beyond. I would often hear, "But you don't seem like the type to be homeless" and then they would slowly just distance themselves from talking to me. Super weird. I've been in such a position following an abusive employment/housing situation. What you say completely rings true. I think there's a partially neurologically wired category of "other" in our brains that is meant to make us super cautious of rootless individuals. Even in our nomadic hunter-gatherer days, we had good reason to be suspect of individuals who didn't have group membership. (Effectively a "home.")

kaeluka 10y ago
You won't slap me in the face because you've got something to lose. A house, family, job, .. Someone homeless hasn't! edit: typo corrected!
- stcredzero 10y ago
  No. Please believe me, you still have something to lose. (BTW, lose != loose)
  - kaeluka 10y ago
    I was not clear: I wanted to say that this is how I think the "reasoning" goes. Obviously, almost everyone has got something to lose.
jonnathanson 10y ago
That, and I think a lot of it is also pattern matching. When we hear that someone is homeless, we compare that person to the mental image we have of the homeless people we've encountered on the streets. One of the great tragedies of our society is that we've allowed our mentally ill to slip through the cracks. Untreated schizophrenics and PTSD-suffering Vietnam veterans may or may not make up a significant percentage of the homeless we see -- but they're certainly the most memorable. They stand out. They ingrain, in passersby, a mental map of homeless people as "crazy," or "violent," or "dangerous." And so we start to believe that homeless people are broken somehow. Many people go a step further; they start to regard the homeless as less than human. These pattern matches are powerful blocks on empathy for many, many people.

scythe 10y ago

You could, at least, rent a place somewhere very cheap (Lodi?) and visit it only occasionally, while living out of your car in the Bay Area. It might ultimately be more sustainable, especially if you're open to having a "roommate" or two (who probably wouldn't mind you being gone a lot!). I spent a year paying $233/month for an attic room in Atlanta (and I lived there), so the opportunities exist.

e40 10y ago

A cautionary tale of what this can lead to: My brother's startup wasn't bring in much money and there was always the near promise it would. He went through all his savings and retirement funds and went close to $100k into CC debt. This was a swing of +$1m to -$70k. Yes, he had a problem (unacknowledged, btw) that was more dire than yours. Just be aware that this stuff can get out of control, if you let it. After getting to the -$70k state, he asked me and my parents for money to continue. We all refused because we knew that our money would be like the $1m+ he had already gone through. We told him to get a job. He refused. He couch surfed for a while. After 6+ months doing that he realized, because his family had abandoned him, he would have to get a job. He did ($155k/yr). He started a month ago. He's angry at the family and won't talk with us now. Ironically, he admitted that he wouldn't have the job now, which he needs, if we had given him money last year. However, that doesn't matter. He still maintains he did the right thing and we didn't support him. It's been a sad year for my parents and me. Actually, sad few years, since we all saw this coming (and tried to prevent it, but he only got angry at us for being "negative"). It was personally hard for me to let him go right to the brink of being on the street. I did it because giving him money would have drained my resources, and for no reason. His reality distortion field was so strong, he would not listen to anyone.

simonebrunozzi 10y ago
Sorry to hear this. I love my Brother to death, and I can't imagine going through what you went through with yours. I hope things will get better.
everlost 10y ago
Just out of curiosity, what was the idea behind his startup? I've been avoiding getting a job along the same lines, but can never imagine going into 100k debt for a startup obsession.
- e40 10y ago
  I don't want to say too much, because I don't want him to find this, but it was a web service for a popular non-profit. It helped them manage costs of a certain nature. It was definitely a good idea, but the non-profit is notoriously stingy, and the sales cycle was very, very long. So far they've only sold one copy. I think the obsession he had scared off some investors, but mainly I think they didn't see a big exit. He had a partner, but the partner got a job years ago, because he had a wife and kids he needed to feed.

Mz 10y ago

I am on the street for health reasons, not to start a business (and getting pretty grumpy about it), but if you find it that hard cope, you might want to check out my blog: http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ http://sandiegohomelesssurvivalguide.blogspot.com/ People do realize I am homeless if they see me often enough, but they don't realize it upon meeting me the first time. I am less open about it than I used to be, because fuck prejudice and what judgey, uncampassionate, unhelpful assholes the vast majority of people are. Best of luck.

chinathrow 10y ago
Thanks for your link, checking it out now. How do you get by these days? How can we help?
- Mz 10y ago
  I do freelance work, when I am well enough. I am developing a number of web projects. I left San Diego County about a year ago and moved someplace cheaper within California and things are still hard, but it has been some months since anyone hassled me for being homeless. That is partly because this is a nicer area, partly that I look more middle class than I used to. If you want to help, there is a tip jar on the site. (You can click on $1 and then enter any number you like.) Money is always useful. Promoting my work in some way so I get more traffic would also be appreciated. Thanks!
openasocket 10y ago
I don't mean to pry, but what do you mean by "on the street for health reasons"? I'm trying to think of a medical condition that could be helped by being homeless, and am drawing a blank. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?
- Mz 10y ago
  The super short version is that I was living in a crappy apartment with mold issues, among other things. I have a serious medical condition that makes me particularly sensitive to things like that. Sleeping in a tent among greenery has helped my health enormously. I am now well enough that getting back into housing would make sense. But it needs to be real estate I own and have control over, so I can rip out carpeting, or whatever, if necessary. It cannot be rental housing and it cannot be a trailer. So, it will be challenging to arrange.

dzmien 10y ago

Being homeless with a vehicle to live in is nothing like being homeless without one. I really don't even think it is the same thing. I've been homeless on a number of occasions (related to addiction, I am now in recovery), and I have done it with and without a vehicle. There is absolutely no comparison between having to sleep on the street and having a vehicle to sleep in, especially during the fall/winter in seasonal areas. I would absolutely live in a converted van if it meant saving money. Sadly, I don't have a van to convert ;-)

louprado 10y ago

It's the quality of sleep that is the biggest concern. Sleeping poorly affects your productivity, creativity, and your health. The social isolation is also bad for all the above since it will likely lead to depression. Seriously, once I rented someone's large closet in Phoenix for $100 a month when I needed to save money. I showered in the gym and stayed in my office all day. Even in the most expensive cities someone will take a "ghost roommate" for $500 a month; pennies compared to cost of a physical/mental health related disorder.

lighttower 10y ago

Yours, sir, is one of the most human statements I've read in recent years.

LulzSect 10y ago

http://i.imgur.com/WHWB4Kkh.jpg http://i.imgur.com/WHWB4Kkh.jpg Minutes ago