9 ms·

How are non-US space agencies and companies (like ESA, Russia, Japan, China, etc) reacting to the SpaceX and Blue Origin achievements? Are they also testing si

by ino 10y ago

How are non-US space agencies and companies (like ESA, Russia, Japan, China, etc) reacting to the SpaceX and Blue Origin achievements? Are they also testing similar things but we aren't hearing? Or they aren't threatened by the advances?

mikeash 10y ago
Airbus is working on Adeline, which would fly back and recover the first-stage engines and avionics (but not the fuel tanks) on an Ariane rocket. The Chinese have mentioned an effort to recover and reuse first stages by landing them with parachutes. So far, the Russians seem to think the effort isn't worthwhile. Closer to home, ULA's new Vulcan rocket is supposed to recover the first stage engines (but again, not the fuel tanks) using a parachute and helicopter. It remains to be seen whether any of these schemes will work or how long they'll take. They have a lot of catching up to do in any case.
- stupidcar 10y ago
  Wikipedia says Ariane 6's first test flight is scheduled for 2020, and Adeline will arrive between 2025 and 2030. Meanwhile, SpaceX plans to launch a Mars mission in 2018.
  - grondilu 10y ago
    Say what you want about SpaceX's plans for re-usability, nobody can deny they are making progress at an incredible pace. I've just checked on Wikipedia and apparently the first flight of the Falcon was in 2010. That's six years ago. Compared to that, Arianeespace's target of 2025 (in nine years!) for Adeline is almost ridiculous. Just checked: Stephane Israël just raised concerned after SpaceX's latest success: http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/05/05/face-a-spacex-le-pdg-d-arianespace-se-fait-lanceur-d-alerte_4914148_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/05/05/face-a-spa...
    - jessriedel 10y ago
      Could you copy-paste his comments? Google translate worked OK, but the site has a paywall.
      - grondilu 10y ago
        I did not go through the paywall either, I only just read what you probably did.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        Pre paywall ""Europe must take stock of what is happening in the United States , because if nothing is done , in ten years, our launcher sector will be in big trouble. " Faced with the offensive for two and a half years in the space by Elon Musk , who breaks the prices of commercial satellite launches, Arianespace boss Stephane Israel sounds alarm . The distortion of competition will intensify as the founder of SpaceX was awarded on April 28 , its first contract with"
        nickik 10y ago
        Why should we care. I see no benfit in government funded rockets. I much rather see ESA buy launches on a competitive market. The should invest in innovative new missions instead of an ill fated attempted to beat comercial producers at rocket development. Other then subsadising your own industry and for military reasons, their is no argument for making your own rockets. Both those are terrible arguments.
        grondilu 10y ago
        I'm not sure Stephane Israël's warning is directed at governments. It's more of a warning call for all European industrials who should increase their efforts to prepare for the present and upcoming US competition. I mean it's not as if Ariane 6 is being built entirely by government money. It's more complicated than that. As a matter of fact, a new company Airbus Safran Launches[1] has recently been created out of the two big aerospace companies and is working mostly on Ariane 6. As I understand it, the CEO of Arianespace is calling for more initiatives like these. It's a bit like with aerospace, when Boeing started building big airlines, European companies gathered and formed Airbus. They were not government owned but I supposed the government did intervene some way or an other considering it was a strategically crucial economic sector. Also, whether the government funds an aerospace company is a bit blurry. SpaceX is privately owned but its major client is the government and, as Stephane Israël often complains about, they get extremely advantageous and arguably unfair contracts notably with the US military. It's kind of a government funding in disguise. That being said, money is not the only issue here. The big thing SpaceX has is passion : since those guys think they're basically saving the world or something, they work much harder than anyone in Europe. I mean it's surely much easier for an engineer to keep working late at night when he thinks that his work will allow man to walk on mars and save the human race from extinction. That's the only way I can explain the extreme speed at which they're making progress when compared to what is done in Europe. 1. http://www.airbusafran-launchers.com/ http://www.airbusafran-launchers.com/
  - gozur88 10y ago
    There's a lot of skepticism about that 2018 date.
    - greedo 10y ago
      Coming from a lot of the people who have doubted reusable rocket engines...
      - gozur88 10y ago
        I don't think so. Engines have been used before. Rockets have been landed on their tails by many organizations. And I don't think too many people doubt SpaceX can go to Mars. The questions are over the date.
        robryan 10y ago
        Most spacex dates slip. Sure they are wildly optimistic but the end result is still much faster than anyone else.
        gozur88 10y ago
        That's the point, though. They do miss most of their deadlines, and if they miss the 2018 date they're going to have to wait a few years for a comparable launch window.
LocaX 10y ago
I attended a conference from the head of the CNES (Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, ~ French NASA) in Paris a week ago and he talked about that. Ariane 6 is going to be built with a cost effective approach and trying to focus on market needs (3D printing of parts, reusability of the first stage, etc.) At first, concerning SpaceX, his group of experts told him that the design of the rocket wasn't going to work and was going to explode at high altitude due to fluctuation. They also told him that the first stage would just go through the barge, sinking both the first stage and the barge. Now they are taking new entrants way more seriously.
- mikeash 10y ago
  I can't imagine how anyone with the slightest clue could conclude that the first stage would sink the barge. The scales are just too different; the barge outweighs the rocket by orders of magnitude. I hope this is one of those "lost in translation" things, because otherwise I fear for that group of supposed experts.
  - sesutton 10y ago
    Pretty sure he means the barge would sink from the big hole he thought the rocket would put in it.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      Of course, but my point is that the barge is so much more massive that the idea of punching a hole all the way through doesn't really make sense, and even if that were possible, such a small hole wouldn't sink it anyway.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - umanwizard 10y ago
        I'm a lot bigger than a bullet but it can still punch a hole through me.

by ino 10y ago

mikeash 10y ago

Airbus is working on Adeline, which would fly back and recover the first-stage engines and avionics (but not the fuel tanks) on an Ariane rocket. The Chinese have mentioned an effort to recover and reuse first stages by landing them with parachutes. So far, the Russians seem to think the effort isn't worthwhile. Closer to home, ULA's new Vulcan rocket is supposed to recover the first stage engines (but again, not the fuel tanks) using a parachute and helicopter. It remains to be seen whether any of these schemes will work or how long they'll take. They have a lot of catching up to do in any case.

stupidcar 10y ago
Wikipedia says Ariane 6's first test flight is scheduled for 2020, and Adeline will arrive between 2025 and 2030. Meanwhile, SpaceX plans to launch a Mars mission in 2018.
- grondilu 10y ago
  Say what you want about SpaceX's plans for re-usability, nobody can deny they are making progress at an incredible pace. I've just checked on Wikipedia and apparently the first flight of the Falcon was in 2010. That's six years ago. Compared to that, Arianeespace's target of 2025 (in nine years!) for Adeline is almost ridiculous. Just checked: Stephane Israël just raised concerned after SpaceX's latest success: http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/05/05/face-a-spacex-le-pdg-d-arianespace-se-fait-lanceur-d-alerte_4914148_3234.html http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/05/05/face-a-spa...
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    Could you copy-paste his comments? Google translate worked OK, but the site has a paywall.
    - grondilu 10y ago
      I did not go through the paywall either, I only just read what you probably did.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      Pre paywall ""Europe must take stock of what is happening in the United States , because if nothing is done , in ten years, our launcher sector will be in big trouble. " Faced with the offensive for two and a half years in the space by Elon Musk , who breaks the prices of commercial satellite launches, Arianespace boss Stephane Israel sounds alarm . The distortion of competition will intensify as the founder of SpaceX was awarded on April 28 , its first contract with"
      - nickik 10y ago
        Why should we care. I see no benfit in government funded rockets. I much rather see ESA buy launches on a competitive market. The should invest in innovative new missions instead of an ill fated attempted to beat comercial producers at rocket development. Other then subsadising your own industry and for military reasons, their is no argument for making your own rockets. Both those are terrible arguments.
        grondilu 10y ago
        I'm not sure Stephane Israël's warning is directed at governments. It's more of a warning call for all European industrials who should increase their efforts to prepare for the present and upcoming US competition. I mean it's not as if Ariane 6 is being built entirely by government money. It's more complicated than that. As a matter of fact, a new company Airbus Safran Launches[1] has recently been created out of the two big aerospace companies and is working mostly on Ariane 6. As I understand it, the CEO of Arianespace is calling for more initiatives like these. It's a bit like with aerospace, when Boeing started building big airlines, European companies gathered and formed Airbus. They were not government owned but I supposed the government did intervene some way or an other considering it was a strategically crucial economic sector. Also, whether the government funds an aerospace company is a bit blurry. SpaceX is privately owned but its major client is the government and, as Stephane Israël often complains about, they get extremely advantageous and arguably unfair contracts notably with the US military. It's kind of a government funding in disguise. That being said, money is not the only issue here. The big thing SpaceX has is passion : since those guys think they're basically saving the world or something, they work much harder than anyone in Europe. I mean it's surely much easier for an engineer to keep working late at night when he thinks that his work will allow man to walk on mars and save the human race from extinction. That's the only way I can explain the extreme speed at which they're making progress when compared to what is done in Europe. 1. http://www.airbusafran-launchers.com/ http://www.airbusafran-launchers.com/
- gozur88 10y ago
  There's a lot of skepticism about that 2018 date.
  - greedo 10y ago
    Coming from a lot of the people who have doubted reusable rocket engines...
    - gozur88 10y ago
      I don't think so. Engines have been used before. Rockets have been landed on their tails by many organizations. And I don't think too many people doubt SpaceX can go to Mars. The questions are over the date.
      - robryan 10y ago
        Most spacex dates slip. Sure they are wildly optimistic but the end result is still much faster than anyone else.
        gozur88 10y ago
        That's the point, though. They do miss most of their deadlines, and if they miss the 2018 date they're going to have to wait a few years for a comparable launch window.

LocaX 10y ago

I attended a conference from the head of the CNES (Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, ~ French NASA) in Paris a week ago and he talked about that. Ariane 6 is going to be built with a cost effective approach and trying to focus on market needs (3D printing of parts, reusability of the first stage, etc.) At first, concerning SpaceX, his group of experts told him that the design of the rocket wasn't going to work and was going to explode at high altitude due to fluctuation. They also told him that the first stage would just go through the barge, sinking both the first stage and the barge. Now they are taking new entrants way more seriously.

mikeash 10y ago
I can't imagine how anyone with the slightest clue could conclude that the first stage would sink the barge. The scales are just too different; the barge outweighs the rocket by orders of magnitude. I hope this is one of those "lost in translation" things, because otherwise I fear for that group of supposed experts.
- sesutton 10y ago
  Pretty sure he means the barge would sink from the big hole he thought the rocket would put in it.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Of course, but my point is that the barge is so much more massive that the idea of punching a hole all the way through doesn't really make sense, and even if that were possible, such a small hole wouldn't sink it anyway.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      I'm a lot bigger than a bullet but it can still punch a hole through me.