4 ms·

Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation. The disconnect that people seem to have here is a "Pretty Woman"-ified view of prostitution;

Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation. The disconnect that people seem to have here is a "Pretty Woman"-ified view of prostitution; even in places where prostitution is decriminalized, people enter due to desperation and do not exit due to dependence. There is no way to do the transaction in a safe environment as by nature you (nearly always a woman) are locking yourself in a room with someone who is likely larger and stronger than you (nearly always a man) who views your body and emotional output something they can buy. The people who oppose the criminalization of purchasing sex via the Nordic Model make vague claims about stigma and 'shifting underground' but ignore the reality of the data: The Nordic model has been shown to reduce being hit with a fist (38%) and rape (48%) by significant amounts. Research done by anti-Nordic model researchers substantiates this, while claiming that an increase in reports of verbal abuse and hair pulling makes this a failure. From the report, we also see: “Most of the women who said they would seek help to protect against violence said that they called or threatened to call the police when they found themselves in a dangerous or threatening situation. This would often scare the customers, or others, who were acting threatening/violent away.” There was also an 80% reduction in prostitutes seeking help from emergency care. [1] Also, claiming that people leaving your borders to break your laws constitutes a failure would be a great way to repeal age of consent laws in the US. Pedophiles just go on sexual tourism trips to places where the age of consent is lower -- but does that make the law unsuccessful? Even if the law is placing the focus on johns, that doesn't mean that johns are the group that are designed to see the primary effects of the law. The Nordic model is very upfront about trying to minimize coercion, trafficking, and violence against women, and does so by providing exit programs for prostituted women and placing the burden of the law on those who purchase sex. [1] https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-liaisons.pdf https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-l...

DanBC 11y ago
> There is no way to do the transaction in a safe environment as by nature you (nearly always a woman) About 40% of the prostitutes in the UK are male. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11169544/Are-we-doing-enough-to-protect-male-sex-workers.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11169544/Are-we-... I agree the clients are almost entirely men. Lots of sex-worker organisations have criticised the Nordic model as something that increases the risk to sex workers. Restricting the client base to men who are willing to break the law means you've biased the client group towards men who are more likely to be violent. https://newrepublic.com/article/121981/northern-ireland-sex-work-law-based-wrong-model https://newrepublic.com/article/121981/northern-ireland-sex-... (EDIT I don't think I downvoted you, and I think it's a shame you were downvoted. I've upvoted your other reply.)
- nostrebored 11y ago
  I'm skeptical of your first link which has absolutely no remarks about data collection besides a link to an aggregation tool, although I do think that the number of men who are g4p is drastically undercounted. Studies conducted in Nordic Model countries show that the Nordic Model reduces violence, trips to the ER, and increases rates of calls to the police by extremely significant margins. (note that this source is actually anti-nordic model, look through their data to see the reality of the situation) https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-liaisons.pdf https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-l...
  - thsealienbstrds 11y ago
    I don't think you can really conclude that it works based on the linked research data. I'm assuming you're referring to table 12, where they compare the percentages of incidents with the pre-Nordic model study. I think you cannot compare the percentages (something that the author acknowledges) because in the 2012 study a time limitation was set when reporting on the occurrence of an incident (only report it if it occurred since introduction of Nordic model), but this time limitation was not set in the other study (report it if it happened at any point in time in the past). You cannot compare victim-percentages of incidents that happened over a period of three years with victim-percentages of incidents that happened over an indefinite period of time. Claiming that the Nordic model works based on such a comparison is like claiming that the birth rate has dropped in the last three years because the total number of children born since 2013 is less than the total number of children born before 2013.
CaptSpify 11y ago
IMO, one of the underlying problems is that prostituion is seen as a "last resort". If we had better systems in place for people who don't have many skills, they wouldn't need to turn to prostitution. Then, prostitution could be done by people who want to do it. Believe it or not, there are people who actually enjoy that type of job.
nitwit005 11y ago
> Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation. Most of the time, maybe, but clearly not always. A woman was arrested for prostituting herself out of my university dorm. Her parents were paying her way through school. She just wanted cash to buy nice cloths. There have long been people who prostitute themselves simply because it's easier than working.
PeterisP 11y ago
There are quite a few professions in which generally people get into out of desperation - combining harsh conditions, low pay, and low social status. People don't go cleaning portable toilets, masturbating animals for insemination or collecting roadkill because they like it, and even usual-but-demanding jobs like fishing, sewing or construction resort to slave labor or close to it in some places. That by itself is not an argument for or against criminalizing parts of the profession.

DanBC 11y ago

> There is no way to do the transaction in a safe environment as by nature you (nearly always a woman) About 40% of the prostitutes in the UK are male. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11169544/Are-we-doing-enough-to-protect-male-sex-workers.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11169544/Are-we-... I agree the clients are almost entirely men. Lots of sex-worker organisations have criticised the Nordic model as something that increases the risk to sex workers. Restricting the client base to men who are willing to break the law means you've biased the client group towards men who are more likely to be violent. https://newrepublic.com/article/121981/northern-ireland-sex-work-law-based-wrong-model https://newrepublic.com/article/121981/northern-ireland-sex-... (EDIT I don't think I downvoted you, and I think it's a shame you were downvoted. I've upvoted your other reply.)

nostrebored 11y ago
I'm skeptical of your first link which has absolutely no remarks about data collection besides a link to an aggregation tool, although I do think that the number of men who are g4p is drastically undercounted. Studies conducted in Nordic Model countries show that the Nordic Model reduces violence, trips to the ER, and increases rates of calls to the police by extremely significant margins. (note that this source is actually anti-nordic model, look through their data to see the reality of the situation) https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-liaisons.pdf https://humboldt1982.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/dangerous-l...
- thsealienbstrds 11y ago
  I don't think you can really conclude that it works based on the linked research data. I'm assuming you're referring to table 12, where they compare the percentages of incidents with the pre-Nordic model study. I think you cannot compare the percentages (something that the author acknowledges) because in the 2012 study a time limitation was set when reporting on the occurrence of an incident (only report it if it occurred since introduction of Nordic model), but this time limitation was not set in the other study (report it if it happened at any point in time in the past). You cannot compare victim-percentages of incidents that happened over a period of three years with victim-percentages of incidents that happened over an indefinite period of time. Claiming that the Nordic model works based on such a comparison is like claiming that the birth rate has dropped in the last three years because the total number of children born since 2013 is less than the total number of children born before 2013.

CaptSpify 11y ago

IMO, one of the underlying problems is that prostituion is seen as a "last resort". If we had better systems in place for people who don't have many skills, they wouldn't need to turn to prostitution. Then, prostitution could be done by people who want to do it. Believe it or not, there are people who actually enjoy that type of job.

nitwit005 11y ago

> Prostitution is something that people get into out of desperation. Most of the time, maybe, but clearly not always. A woman was arrested for prostituting herself out of my university dorm. Her parents were paying her way through school. She just wanted cash to buy nice cloths. There have long been people who prostitute themselves simply because it's easier than working.

PeterisP 11y ago

There are quite a few professions in which generally people get into out of desperation - combining harsh conditions, low pay, and low social status. People don't go cleaning portable toilets, masturbating animals for insemination or collecting roadkill because they like it, and even usual-but-demanding jobs like fishing, sewing or construction resort to slave labor or close to it in some places. That by itself is not an argument for or against criminalizing parts of the profession.