9 ms·

> What makes sexual labor so horrid? Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive

by atmosx 11y ago

> What makes sexual labor so horrid? Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. It's okay to display violence, no one will argue, but displaying explicit sex scenes... Well that's a no-no :-) We have more than a few remnants from the dark ages. EDIT: There's this amazing song by an Italian cantautor called "Fabrizio De Andre". The story (lyrics) are spectacular, full of everyday life wisdom. You can read an English translation on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysydBLMSbRs

Fastidious 11y ago
Yes, religion (especially Christianity) comes, once again, to mess things up. It is the cause of many problems we have today, and it affect us all, as it is deeply ingrained in politics and government. I can go and sell blood, or work ten hours a day, or eat until I explode, yet I have someone dictating what I can or cannot do with my sex life? Certainly more than a few remnants from the dark ages.
Zircom 11y ago
>You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Or perhaps that has more to do with the fact that Catholicism is central to Mathew Murdock as a character, so it makes sense he isn't sleeping around given that premarital sex is a big no-no for Catholics. Also, we're only two seasons in, not three.
- vacri 11y ago
  I thought it funny that in Dexter, where the protagonist is a serial killer who carves people up as the central plot device, the topic of abortion was shut down. Dexter gets his girlfriend pregnant, and doesn't even get past the first sentence before she shuts down that avenue completely. Simply not an option for even a minor discussion.
- horseradish35 11y ago
  There was plenty of dialog in seas 1 establishing that Matt knew how to find and bag the pretty girls whenever he wanted. There's an entire flashback sequence where Foggy gets excited to learn Matt uses his "disability" to woo ladies. He figures some of that will spill over into his lap.
jessaustin 11y ago
...3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. If you're looking for more, one might suggest the "affiliated" Hell's-Kitchen-in-Marvel-Universe-on-Netflix program Jessica Jones. Ms. Jones has a different philosophy than Mr. Murdock with respect to casual intercourse, which you might find more appealing. They appear to agree on plenty of the old ultra-violence, however.
padobson 11y ago
I find the moral outrage against sex by my fellow Christians to be a perversion of the teachings of Jesus. Two C.S. Lewis quotes on the subject: "The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins." "...a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute." The desire for sex is ingrained in human nature, and so long as people can pay for things, sex will be one of the things they pay for. If we can reduce the number of victims by making it legal and regulating it, then I'm all for it. But, at the same time, I'd consider myself a failure as a moral guide if my daughter chose it as a career.
- shkkmo 11y ago
  Would you consider it more of a failure than if she spent her life working minimum wage fast food jobs and watching TV? One of the issues around sex work, even in countries where it is legal is how the stigma associated with sex work leads to increased negative outcomes for sex workers.
- tryitnow 11y ago
  Those are nice quotes from Lewis, but the fact remains that he and most other Christians would support criminalizing prostitution. And although moral outrage against sex may not be in the teachings of Jesus, it's certainly in the teachings of Paul and other canonical early Christian writers.
  - slowmovintarget 11y ago
    I believe prostitution is morally wrong. I believe making it illegal is ineffective. I believe the correct legal thing to do is to criminalize only the buying side of the transaction. If you pay for it, you are victimizing, and that should be criminal. If you provide, that's legal, but not moral.
    - Mz 11y ago
      If you actually read the article, criminalizing the purchase makes it riskier for the sex worker. They are asked to go meet people in more remote areas because the johns want to avoid the cops. This means some of them get murdered, assaulted, etc. Decriminilizing it is about improving safety for sex workers. I think that is where our questions of morality should focus. People are going to continue to have sexual needs. Prostitution gets called the oldest profession for a reason: Even certain monkey/ape species will trade sex for goods (like food). Making it illegal doesn't make it go away. It just makes it riskier and that risk disproportionately negatively impacts the women doing sex work.
CobrastanJorji 11y ago
I watched "Deadpool" on a flight the other day. It warned me that it was edited for content, and I thought "hrm, that's a shame, but given that there may be children around me on a flight, I suppose that's reasonable." I then watched an entire human body literally splatter against a wall without censorship, followed later by a heavily injured protagonist standing up facing away, presumably nude because they blurred out his butt.
- striking 11y ago
  It's as if children have never seen rears in the nude before. Not even their own.
  - WildUtah 11y ago
    Children must be protected from seeing nipples. There's nothing more abusive, corrupting, and unnatural than a small child encountering an adult female nipple.
- TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
  This is precisely the reason I do not participate on any social media site that bans bare (female) nipples. There are much worse things to see and read than the naked epidermis. How absurd! How can nudity be an issue? We're all naked under these clothes. This is also why I believe religion should be ridiculed and shamed until it drops this utterly false pretense, until it -all of them- come out and publicly recall the sins of the flesh.
umbs 11y ago
TLDR; I don't think religion is the reason for Matt Murdock's not having serious relationship. Your main point seems to be lack of explicit sexual content on DareDevil. You are tying that with Matt Murdock's (loose) Christian faith. I feel somewhat differently about DareDevil and it's story line. [1] In season 2, Matt had relationship with Electra and they _do_ have sex in the boxing gym. Creators of the show did not show it _very_ explicitly. [2] Matt's discussions with Father Lantom in the Church is more spiritual rather than religious, IMO. They discuss about morals, right/wrong etc. Notice that Lantom always uses "God" and not "Jesus" (AFAIR). I don't think anything Father Lantom says is picked out of Bible or looks like preaching. Just his observations on life. I am a Hindu and I totally related to what he was saying. Never felt he was preaching or giving sermons. I feel, you can rename Matt to something else and put a Temple of Mosque there and still all that Father Lantom says will be appropriate (story line wise). [3] Matt is very clear in his priorities. Given his "other life", he simply cannot afford to have a serious relationship. He states it at some point with Claire Temple (Rosario Dawson). His will "weakens" in season 2 and begins relationship with Karen Page before Electra comes in and sours it. With all this background, and no serious relationships between other characters, having an explicit sexual scene seems contrived and needless. [4] The original content from Netflix in the Drama section has about 10 series. I watched 4 of them to a certain lengths. The amount of explicit content, particularly sexual content, is too much for me. Many times I feel there is absolutely no need for it (especially with Marco and Sense8). In that light, I feel DareDevil is much better for me. Sorry, my comment is too long than I intended. And it digressed from OP and more on DD's story line.
- rat87 11y ago
  [2] Matt's discussions with Father Lantom in the Church is more spiritual rather than religious, IMO. I disagree, Catholicism is a big part of the Daredevil character. http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2015/04/netflix_s_daredevil_show_understands_that_catholicism_is_the_superhero_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2015/04/netfli...
  - umbs 11y ago
    As per this article, you are right. However, my observations were solely based on the TV show. I didn't have knowledge about the comic series, the role of Frank Miller in reviving it and influence of Catholicism in the character. Good to know this history.
joelrunyon 11y ago
DareDevil might have been the worst example you could have picked for your argument.
- GBond 11y ago
  I agree. Also it seems the opposite is true: most dramas on streaming tend to force in obligatory racy sex scenes.
MustardTiger 11y ago
>Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. Neither of those things are really accurate though. Christianity long considered sex positive too. Having sex with your spouse was in fact a legal requirement, your wife could sue you for not performing. Most other cultures were the same way. Everyone having sex with everyone made for a pretty bad society. That's why there was so much focus on pairing off and creating a family.
- throwaway2016a 11y ago
  Most likely having sex with a prostitute is not your spouse. Also, as someone who was raised Catholic it was very clear. If you're not doing it to procreate you are sinning. (disclaimer: I do not believe that view)
  - michaelsbradley 11y ago
    That's not correct, but is a common misunderstanding. The Catholic Church's teaching is that sexual intimacy between spouses has both unitive and procreative dimensions, and that both need to be respected. For a deep dive, see Pope St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body[1] and the late Fr. Paul Quay's The Christian Meaning of Human Sexuality[2]. [1] https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM [2] http://j.mp/QuayMeaningOfSexPDFscan http://j.mp/QuayMeaningOfSexPDFscan
    - throwaway2016a 11y ago
      That's very interesting. It may indeed be incorrect but it is what my priest taught, it is what my teacher at Catholic school taught, and it is what the retreat I had to go on to get married in the church taught.
      - tluyben2 11y ago
        What does that retreat mean? What happens there? Sorry, never heard of such a thing so i'm curious.
doktrin 11y ago
> 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Wasn't there a fairly explicit sex scene in the most recent season (which incidentally is 2, not 3)?
- atmosx 11y ago
  Which one?
optforfon 11y ago
This is a simplistic answer. Look at East Asian cultures to seem a much more sexual conservative environment. Try to delve into the why and it's complicated! As far as I can tell it boils down to marriage stability. Most people date to marry (any relationships that don't lead to marriage are viewed as a failure). Promiscuity leads to sexual insecurity as the less experiences partner fears not living up to the more experienced partners expectations. So this creates a strong downward pressure on everyone to not be promiscuous (and in small communities peer pressure is overwhelming) I can imagine that historically prostitution was kinda the equivalent of becoming a eunuch. Sure it maybe pays well, but you typically won't marry (I guess unless your stunningly beautiful?) and you won't carry on your family lineage (or the vague female equivalent)
michaelsbradley 11y ago
Christian thinkers have, over the past 20 centuries, developed a variety of views on when/how immoral actions should be tolerated by the state (and left to divine judgment) versus their being actively prosecuted. There is a fascinating essay on the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas – one of the most influential thinkers in the history of Western Christian thought – as it pertains to the toleration of prostitution: Aquinas on the Practice of Prostitution http://www.illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html http://www.illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html
bottled_poe 11y ago
> sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. Can you back that up with evidence? "Because religion" is a predictable response, but I think there is more to it than that. This argument fails to acknowledge the fact that sex is inherently an emotional activity, while other activities, such as bricklaying, are not. The social aspects of prostitution, and the implications on relationships between humans, are precisely why it is widely deplored beyond religious ideology. Religion is not some construct of imagination, it is the result of human cultural development over thousands of years.
cushychicken 11y ago
Sounds more like a statement of the mores of American television. Violence is OK to show, but sex is a big no-no. Interestingly, the reverse is true in Europe.

by atmosx 11y ago

Fastidious 11y ago

Yes, religion (especially Christianity) comes, once again, to mess things up. It is the cause of many problems we have today, and it affect us all, as it is deeply ingrained in politics and government. I can go and sell blood, or work ten hours a day, or eat until I explode, yet I have someone dictating what I can or cannot do with my sex life? Certainly more than a few remnants from the dark ages.

Zircom 11y ago

>You can see it on TV. Take DareDevils TVSeries, but I'm sure you'll find many examples, there are countless raw violence scenes for free, but 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Or perhaps that has more to do with the fact that Catholicism is central to Mathew Murdock as a character, so it makes sense he isn't sleeping around given that premarital sex is a big no-no for Catholics. Also, we're only two seasons in, not three.

vacri 11y ago
I thought it funny that in Dexter, where the protagonist is a serial killer who carves people up as the central plot device, the topic of abortion was shut down. Dexter gets his girlfriend pregnant, and doesn't even get past the first sentence before she shuts down that avenue completely. Simply not an option for even a minor discussion.
horseradish35 11y ago
There was plenty of dialog in seas 1 establishing that Matt knew how to find and bag the pretty girls whenever he wanted. There's an entire flashback sequence where Foggy gets excited to learn Matt uses his "disability" to woo ladies. He figures some of that will spill over into his lap.

jessaustin 11y ago

...3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. If you're looking for more, one might suggest the "affiliated" Hell's-Kitchen-in-Marvel-Universe-on-Netflix program Jessica Jones. Ms. Jones has a different philosophy than Mr. Murdock with respect to casual intercourse, which you might find more appealing. They appear to agree on plenty of the old ultra-violence, however.

padobson 11y ago

I find the moral outrage against sex by my fellow Christians to be a perversion of the teachings of Jesus. Two C.S. Lewis quotes on the subject: "The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins." "...a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute." The desire for sex is ingrained in human nature, and so long as people can pay for things, sex will be one of the things they pay for. If we can reduce the number of victims by making it legal and regulating it, then I'm all for it. But, at the same time, I'd consider myself a failure as a moral guide if my daughter chose it as a career.

shkkmo 11y ago
Would you consider it more of a failure than if she spent her life working minimum wage fast food jobs and watching TV? One of the issues around sex work, even in countries where it is legal is how the stigma associated with sex work leads to increased negative outcomes for sex workers.
tryitnow 11y ago
Those are nice quotes from Lewis, but the fact remains that he and most other Christians would support criminalizing prostitution. And although moral outrage against sex may not be in the teachings of Jesus, it's certainly in the teachings of Paul and other canonical early Christian writers.
- slowmovintarget 11y ago
  I believe prostitution is morally wrong. I believe making it illegal is ineffective. I believe the correct legal thing to do is to criminalize only the buying side of the transaction. If you pay for it, you are victimizing, and that should be criminal. If you provide, that's legal, but not moral.
  - Mz 11y ago
    If you actually read the article, criminalizing the purchase makes it riskier for the sex worker. They are asked to go meet people in more remote areas because the johns want to avoid the cops. This means some of them get murdered, assaulted, etc. Decriminilizing it is about improving safety for sex workers. I think that is where our questions of morality should focus. People are going to continue to have sexual needs. Prostitution gets called the oldest profession for a reason: Even certain monkey/ape species will trade sex for goods (like food). Making it illegal doesn't make it go away. It just makes it riskier and that risk disproportionately negatively impacts the women doing sex work.

CobrastanJorji 11y ago

I watched "Deadpool" on a flight the other day. It warned me that it was edited for content, and I thought "hrm, that's a shame, but given that there may be children around me on a flight, I suppose that's reasonable." I then watched an entire human body literally splatter against a wall without censorship, followed later by a heavily injured protagonist standing up facing away, presumably nude because they blurred out his butt.

striking 11y ago
It's as if children have never seen rears in the nude before. Not even their own.
- WildUtah 11y ago
  Children must be protected from seeing nipples. There's nothing more abusive, corrupting, and unnatural than a small child encountering an adult female nipple.
TheSpiceIsLife 11y ago
This is precisely the reason I do not participate on any social media site that bans bare (female) nipples. There are much worse things to see and read than the naked epidermis. How absurd! How can nudity be an issue? We're all naked under these clothes. This is also why I believe religion should be ridiculed and shamed until it drops this utterly false pretense, until it -all of them- come out and publicly recall the sins of the flesh.

umbs 11y ago

TLDR; I don't think religion is the reason for Matt Murdock's not having serious relationship. Your main point seems to be lack of explicit sexual content on DareDevil. You are tying that with Matt Murdock's (loose) Christian faith. I feel somewhat differently about DareDevil and it's story line. [1] In season 2, Matt had relationship with Electra and they _do_ have sex in the boxing gym. Creators of the show did not show it _very_ explicitly. [2] Matt's discussions with Father Lantom in the Church is more spiritual rather than religious, IMO. They discuss about morals, right/wrong etc. Notice that Lantom always uses "God" and not "Jesus" (AFAIR). I don't think anything Father Lantom says is picked out of Bible or looks like preaching. Just his observations on life. I am a Hindu and I totally related to what he was saying. Never felt he was preaching or giving sermons. I feel, you can rename Matt to something else and put a Temple of Mosque there and still all that Father Lantom says will be appropriate (story line wise). [3] Matt is very clear in his priorities. Given his "other life", he simply cannot afford to have a serious relationship. He states it at some point with Claire Temple (Rosario Dawson). His will "weakens" in season 2 and begins relationship with Karen Page before Electra comes in and sours it. With all this background, and no serious relationships between other characters, having an explicit sexual scene seems contrived and needless. [4] The original content from Netflix in the Drama section has about 10 series. I watched 4 of them to a certain lengths. The amount of explicit content, particularly sexual content, is too much for me. Many times I feel there is absolutely no need for it (especially with Marco and Sense8). In that light, I feel DareDevil is much better for me. Sorry, my comment is too long than I intended. And it digressed from OP and more on DD's story line.

rat87 11y ago
[2] Matt's discussions with Father Lantom in the Church is more spiritual rather than religious, IMO. I disagree, Catholicism is a big part of the Daredevil character. http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2015/04/netflix_s_daredevil_show_understands_that_catholicism_is_the_superhero_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2015/04/netfli...
- umbs 11y ago
  As per this article, you are right. However, my observations were solely based on the TV show. I didn't have knowledge about the comic series, the role of Frank Miller in reviving it and influence of Catholicism in the character. Good to know this history.

joelrunyon 11y ago

DareDevil might have been the worst example you could have picked for your argument.

GBond 11y ago
I agree. Also it seems the opposite is true: most dramas on streaming tend to force in obligatory racy sex scenes.

MustardTiger 11y ago

>Religion, especially Christendom and it's various strains. Before that in many cultures, sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. Neither of those things are really accurate though. Christianity long considered sex positive too. Having sex with your spouse was in fact a legal requirement, your wife could sue you for not performing. Most other cultures were the same way. Everyone having sex with everyone made for a pretty bad society. That's why there was so much focus on pairing off and creating a family.

throwaway2016a 11y ago
Most likely having sex with a prostitute is not your spouse. Also, as someone who was raised Catholic it was very clear. If you're not doing it to procreate you are sinning. (disclaimer: I do not believe that view)
- michaelsbradley 11y ago
  That's not correct, but is a common misunderstanding. The Catholic Church's teaching is that sexual intimacy between spouses has both unitive and procreative dimensions, and that both need to be respected. For a deep dive, see Pope St. John Paul II's Theology of the Body[1] and the late Fr. Paul Quay's The Christian Meaning of Human Sexuality[2]. [1] https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM [2] http://j.mp/QuayMeaningOfSexPDFscan http://j.mp/QuayMeaningOfSexPDFscan
  - throwaway2016a 11y ago
    That's very interesting. It may indeed be incorrect but it is what my priest taught, it is what my teacher at Catholic school taught, and it is what the retreat I had to go on to get married in the church taught.
    - tluyben2 11y ago
      What does that retreat mean? What happens there? Sorry, never heard of such a thing so i'm curious.

doktrin 11y ago

> 3 seasons in and DareDevil hasn't been with a woman with the exception of a kiss. Wasn't there a fairly explicit sex scene in the most recent season (which incidentally is 2, not 3)?

atmosx 11y ago
Which one?

optforfon 11y ago

This is a simplistic answer. Look at East Asian cultures to seem a much more sexual conservative environment. Try to delve into the why and it's complicated! As far as I can tell it boils down to marriage stability. Most people date to marry (any relationships that don't lead to marriage are viewed as a failure). Promiscuity leads to sexual insecurity as the less experiences partner fears not living up to the more experienced partners expectations. So this creates a strong downward pressure on everyone to not be promiscuous (and in small communities peer pressure is overwhelming) I can imagine that historically prostitution was kinda the equivalent of becoming a eunuch. Sure it maybe pays well, but you typically won't marry (I guess unless your stunningly beautiful?) and you won't carry on your family lineage (or the vague female equivalent)

michaelsbradley 11y ago

Christian thinkers have, over the past 20 centuries, developed a variety of views on when/how immoral actions should be tolerated by the state (and left to divine judgment) versus their being actively prosecuted. There is a fascinating essay on the moral theology of Thomas Aquinas – one of the most influential thinkers in the history of Western Christian thought – as it pertains to the toleration of prostitution: Aquinas on the Practice of Prostitution http://www.illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html http://www.illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html

bottled_poe 11y ago

> sex was seen a something positive, a pleasure in which you should indulge in. Can you back that up with evidence? "Because religion" is a predictable response, but I think there is more to it than that. This argument fails to acknowledge the fact that sex is inherently an emotional activity, while other activities, such as bricklaying, are not. The social aspects of prostitution, and the implications on relationships between humans, are precisely why it is widely deplored beyond religious ideology. Religion is not some construct of imagination, it is the result of human cultural development over thousands of years.

cushychicken 11y ago

Sounds more like a statement of the mores of American television. Violence is OK to show, but sex is a big no-no. Interestingly, the reverse is true in Europe.