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> I still planned to continue moving, of course, but now things would need to go to different places, and by different means. > I started having panic attacks,
by dimino 10y ago
> I still planned to continue moving, of course, but now things would need to go to different places, and by different means.
> I started having panic attacks, thinking that I’d need to get myself and literally every object, including electronics, that I cared about accross the border
> Every device I owned could be compromised, I’d lose all my data, my pictures of family and loved ones, fiction I’d wrote as a teenager, and Lisp I’d wrote as a child
> I’ll admit I actually cried, not knowing when I’d hug my mom again
> I didn’t talk to anyone who wasn’t already in regular contact with me, fearing I might endanger them
> I didn’t talk to anyone who wasn’t already in regular contact with me, fearing I might endanger them — some thug might show up at their mom’s door or make some threats to their lawyers — and I didn’t want to risk harming people I care about. It hurt to not tell my friends what was happening. I felt gagged and frightened.
> I wanted to read the number theory papers I’d just downloaded and play with a new pairing-based cryptography library I’d just been given the source to, but I couldn’t do those things either, simply because I was too stressed out to think straight.
None of this is the reaction of a healthy person. Panic attacks? Not talking to people for fear of endangering them? Crying herself to sleep? Not knowing when she'd hug her mom again???
It's also worth noting that the quotations of the FBI agents include all of their tics and stutters. This is often done in an effort to discredit the person being quoted.
This is not harassment.
- zyxley 10y ago> "But... if we happen to run into her on the street, we’re gonna be asking her some questions without you present." That sure sounds like intended harassment to me.
- oh_sigh 10y agoThe person can always refuse to answer questions without their lawyer.
- zyxley 10y agoIf someone has already directed law enforcement to their lawyer, attempting to talk to them in person without their lawyer present is overwhelmingly likely to simply result in being referred to that lawyer again. The result is wasted time and an unpleasant experience. The law enforcement in question would already know this, so pursuing it anyway is harassment, regardless of it being legal.
- MBCook 10y agoAnd luckily we've learned in the last 15 or so years that nothing bad every happens to people who the Government isn't happy with. Especially ones who are foreign citizens.
- dimino 10y agoI don't think you know what harassment is then, if you think someone talking to you on the street is de facto harassment.
- fungos 10y agoAn FBI agent is not "someone".
- dimino 10y agoI don't think you know what harassment is then, if you think an FBI agent talking to you on the street is de facto harassment.
- zyxley 10y ago"We are going to try and question you without your lawyer present" is at best an implicit threat.
- dimino 10y agoNo it's not. Edit: To elaborate, Threat - A declaring of one's intention to cause harm or loss to another's person or property or to limit one's freedom to act in a lawful voluntary manner (a threat to kidnap). Harm to a person or property is not inherently present when talking to someone on the street.
- zyxley 10y ago> "But... if we happen to run into her on the street, we’re gonna be asking her some questions without you present." This does not imply "a pleasant conversation of a few minutes on the street". This implies, given the past and present behavior of law enforcement at all levels of government, "ending up in an interrogation room for several hours during repeated questioning attempts, before being dumped on the street somewhere random after refusing to answer questions without a lawyer present".
- geofft 10y agoIt's not the reaction of a healthy person, because the purpose of harassment is to damage your psyche. Just like bleeding when shot is not the reaction of a healthy person -- the purpose of shooting someone is to reduce their health. If you find someone bleeding, there are two reasonable conclusions: one is that they started out unhealthy, and the other is that they were attacked.
- dimino 10y agoYou misunderstand. Her reaction to what you call harrassment is not the reaction a healthy person would have to the same treatment. To extend your analogy, this would be like a person losing a quart of blood over a pinprick.
- zyxley 10y agoIf we're going the analogies here, this is more like someone with a gun pointed at them worrying that they may get shot. "Stop worrying!" you say. "You can trust the person holding the gun! They almost never shoot people who don't deserve it!"
- dimino 10y agoBeing questioned by the FBI is not analogous to being shot in the head.
- zyxley 10y agoBeing told "the FBI has decided to talk to you without a lawyer present" has a small but entirely real chance of resulting in personal or professional harm. Also, I don't know where you got "in the head" from.
- dimino 10y agoDriving to work has a small but entirely real chance of resulting in personal (maybe not professional) harm.
- woodman 10y agoBeing threatened by someone who can legally kidnap you kind of puts the zap on you. I once pissed off a municipal cop, and he started calling coworkers - it took about a month for me to stop weighing the possibility of being dragged onto the lawn in my underwear before taking off my pants in my own home.
- 050415233 10y ago>panic attacks I created a throwaway account for this, but: I developed panic attacks after spending a few years living with somebody who had severe depression peppered with episodes of psychosis (my wife). I didn't know the things that would send them into a psychotic episode[1], and the stress of it eventually caused me to be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. This person is now on the proper medications, and no longer has psychotic episodes, but my panic attacks remain. It isn't a stretch to think that constant harassment by the FBI could cause something similar. It's pretty well established that this is what killed Aaron Swartz. [1] An interesting observation I've made regarding this: part of my life involves a job that deals with people who are having a psychologically challenging reaction to psychedelic drugs. The people having the worst acid trips are identical to the types of psychosis that my wife used to have. Like there is something that they really need to tell me, but can't get me to understand. My inability to understand what they need to tell me causes a tremendous amount of anguish.
- dimino 10y agoI am sorry you have panic attacks, but having panic attacks is not a healthy response to stress. Furthermore, this is not "constant harassment", or anywhere near the level of what the FBI did to Aaron Swartz. In addition, Aaron Swartz was absolutely not a healthy human being.
- woodman 10y ago> ...having panic attacks is not a healthy response to stress. Choking to death because of an allergy isn't a healthy response to peanuts, but like panic attacks, is involuntary. The legal system has already addressed the thrust of your argument with the Eggshell skull doctrine [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
- dimino 10y agoMy argument is that her panic attacks, when coupled with her other statements, indicate an unwell person, which undermines her credibility with regard to the seriousness of what the FBI agents are said to have done. According to you, the FBI should have known she was unwell and treated her as such, which I can understand. Having never actually talked to her or even been aware that she was having panic attacks or other mental issues as a result of their inquiries, I fail to see how you would expect the FBI agents to do that, however.