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Experienced Programmers Use Google Frequently
- buserror 10y agoAnother essential point here is when you get 'fancy' error messages. Google is amazing at finding why (and usually, The Patch) when you fail to compile random packages. I have my own little cross-distro builder[0] and I /rarely/ bother trying to dive into autoconf/make hell before cut+pasting the exact error message into google! That very likely saved my sanity many times over :-) Otherwise I agree with the article -- Given the number of environments and languages around, actually 'knowing' trivialities like exact library names and such is a waste of good neuron.. [0]: http://github.com/buserror/minifs/ http://github.com/buserror/minifs/
- ahyperloop4u 10y agoThis is spot on. Sometimes it's much quicker to just plug the error into Google than to search. Saves a lot of time and work.
- rhizome 10y agoGoogle is a DSL for troubleshooting.
- nraynaud 10y agoI live in France, and I hate localized linux distributions, you can't google error messages when it's localized. I sometimes try to re-translate the message in English and google it. Error messages are not messages for the users to diagnose anymore, they are keywords for google, give them a number. I google and if it fails, I'll try to use my brain.
- wallacoloo 10y agoSounds like a good reason to use error codes (non-localized) alongside error messages (localized). E.g. "404: page not found".
- bobwaycott 10y agoPerhaps we need error messages that include a Google link for searching that error.
- eru 10y agoMicrosoft has started to include QR codes in the bluescreens of death.
- nraynaud 10y agothere is an ironic situation: in Google Chrome, when you get an error (like a rejected certificate, or something a bit browsery), they give you a link to a completely unhelpful "help" page about the chrome browser, instead of a google search "thatsite.com <certificate rejected error>".
- zachrose 10y agoMuch like the sort algorithm that downloads and evals Stack Overflow answers until the list is sorted, someone should make a build tool that Googles any error output, installs possible patches, and restarts the build. It could even see if adding the patch caused a new error and decide whether to roll back or keep patching.
- NobleSir 10y agoThat seems like a pretty safe idea.
- kuschku 10y agoDo it in a VM, and it is.
- SCHiM 10y agoA VM is also just software, plenty of quest-to-host escapes in the last few years... I bet that many people that should know better here have never updated their VM, except those who are warned by the auto updater that is.
- ball_of_lint 10y agoI always put my vm to host escapes in the sort section of stackoverflow. Not to say that this is not actually a security threat, but I would say a VM is safe enough
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- sarnowski 10y agoThis small post is spot on. The search queries could have been typed by me. One of the important things a developer has to learn is how to actually use Google for software investigation. Especially with the acronyms and very short names that we use all the time, its important to know how to structure your Google queries. Writing Google queries to quickly find the correct solutions is a skill on its own.
- dasboth 10y ago>> Writing Google queries to quickly find the correct solutions is a skill on its own. This is so true, and yet I haven't ever heard of anyone asking about this in an interview. It would be an interesting skill to try and assess, not sure how it would be done though.
- markbnj 10y agoGoogle is certainly a 100% essential tool for programming. I use it constantly, every day, and I am sure basically every single developer does the same. The most essential point in the post, imo, is that on any given project you have to wade through the details of dozens of components and tools. There's only so much room in the average brain.
- stephenr 10y agoGoogle? No. A search engine? I'd say the vast majority of developers use one for some part of their job, yes
- ahmedbaracat 10y agoMay I ask you what other search engines are you referring to?
- stephenr 10y agoPersonally, I use DDG. Others may use bing, my point was to buck the Kleenex-ation of Google. I don't Google things, or DDG things. I search for things
- markbnj 10y agoRight, agreed, "search engine" is what I should have said, although I suspect that even among developers Google search would be the heavy winner in terms of use.
- bobbytherobot 10y agoI use DDG on my non-work machines. Google is better at finding stuff for programming, particularly the random error messages.
- passivepinetree 10y agoI've tried to use DDG for programming but I've found that Google's efficiency is just too good to make DDG worthwhile. I guess I've decided to take the privacy hit in regards to developing activities.
- curtis 10y agoI often joke that my ability to formulate good Google queries is the single most important part of my software engineering skillset. Except, you know, I'm not really joking.
- dgacmu 10y agoDon't undercount that you also have the skill to determine whether an answer on stackoverflow (etc.) is actually correct and worthwhile. (I taught intro to CS for the first time last year, and watched people get very hung up by subtly broken things they found on the innertubes. To the point where we simply told them not to - we'd much rather have them asking the course staff, until they've developed the experience to sort out the wheat from the chaff themselves.)
- hyperpallium 10y agoI tried to learn openGL ES from the official android tutorial, which is subtly broken all over the place. It works but shouldn't. The funny thing is that when I googled it, there were lots of complaints about it being broken, and the author responded and fixed them... but years before... I eventually got things working, though I feel far from confident about openGL ES. Actually, embedded shader code, packed arrays, limited debugging and my rusty matrix algebra doesn't make it easy.
- Touche 10y agoRelated is being good at debugging. There's something about having a certain intuition (in reality probably experience) on what it is that you are looking for that is critical.
- noobermin 10y agoLet's say tomorrow there was some major catastrophy in which every disk drive or tape drive was wiped, and every computer had reset. How would we fare in rebuilding society? I guess it would be similar if in 1950, all of books lost their ink or all of scientists/engineers had amnesia. I'm not trying to make a point other than it is interesting to think about it.
- minsight 10y agoWe'd be fine. I have a calculator (and have owned one for about 30 years), but I still remember how to do arithmetic.
- dasboth 10y agoThat's a very general skill though. You'd be stuck if you encountered a cryptic error message in an obscure library.
- tdumitrescu 10y agoHumanity would have to come together to reconstruct Angular and Bootstrap from the ground up.
- coldcode 10y agoThus the end of humanity.
- nkristoffersen 10y agohilarious! Saving humanity with one ng-repeat and btn-primary at a time.
- kyberias 10y agoThat's an interesting idea. Someone should write a Martianesque scifi-novel about that kind of struggle.
- _RPM 10y agoThat is my motivation to learn low level things like kernels, language implementation, etc.
- sndean 10y ago> “Never memorize something that you can look up.” - Albert Einstein Here's the actual [1], and perhaps more meaningful, quote: "[I do not] carry such information in my mind since it is readily available in books. ...The value of a college education is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think." [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein
- coldcode 10y agoYet we force people in interviews to remember things standing in front of a whiteboard.
- kajecounterhack 10y agoHow much you remember is also correlated to how much you actually use certain things; it can be a good signal for whether you have practical experience with X. For some companies, it's what they need in a hire. For others it's OK to just ensure people have a sound problem solving strategy and above-average general cognition. I think you'll find varying levels of what you might consider nitpicking depending on the sort of company you're interviewing at.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago>> it can be a good signal for whether you have practical experience with X. This should be vetted out well in advance of an interview, especially for a developer. If you don't have at least a half dozen repos somewhere with code examples of sites or apps you've built, then there's a very high chance you're not going to get an interview. I've only been coding for 7-8 years and I have an extensive GitHub page, can point to close to 200 public sites I've built (both dynamic and static) and have a portfolio full of images from other projects I've worked on. If you can't ascertain whether a person has practical experience with a tool, software, or language then you're not doing your due diligence.
- Tyr42 10y ago
- koolba 10y agoI not only use Google frequently, I use it to search for things I myself have written in the past. I can't count the number of times I've Googled for a programming question where the answer is found on a Stack Overflow page I've written. If it's a particularly old answer that I've completely forgotten, I've even thought to myself, "Wow this genius sounds just like me!"[1]. [1]: ... as well as "This idiot has no clue what he's talking about!"
- kyberias 10y agoHave you tried to pat yourself on the back by trying to upvote your own answer in Stack Overflow? I tried once. They didn't let me do it.
- koolba 10y agoEven better ... I tried to downvote myself to the same result.
- abustamam 10y agoImagine if they allowed you to downvote yourself... The next day: - you comment: "hey, can someone explain the downv-- oh wait, that was me"
- SeanDav 10y agoYou can answer your own question and mark your own answer as the correct answer, which does benefit your SO score.
- Keyframe 10y agoThat and finding a question you've search for, only to find out that question was also posted by you years ago. Bonus for ones with no answers still.
- mlvljr 10y agoExtra bonus, if closed as "not a real question", heavily upvoted, at the top of the Google's 1st page of search results, and actually containing a (heavily upvoted as well) solution. P.S. Recursive bonus: closed with a comment ("you should just google it") and now actually the top result in search output (happens quite frequently) :)
- indlebe 10y agoI use DuckDuckGo frequently (´꒳`)
- ptrincr 10y agoKnowing how to search is an extremely useful skill. I think we have gotten to the stage where an intelligent and determined individual can teach themselves pretty much anything by researching a subject on Google. Hold key concepts in your head, Google for everything else :-)
- bad_user 10y agoOh, I predict dozens of programmers coming here in the comments section to confess.
- dasboth 10y ago>> carefully evaluating the results and consciously separating the wheat from the chaff; they don’t blindly follow or copy-paste any solution they come across As well as writing the correct search query, this is the other important aspect of the skill of using Google. A good programmer can look at an answer on StackOverflow and quickly determine whether or not it looks "about right" and how it can be integrated into their code.
- nostrademons 10y agoIronically, the one time that I did not use Google frequently (as a programmer) was when I was working on Google Search. It's hard to Google the answers for how the search engine works, particularly when they're locked up in the heads of only one or two people. Use it all the time otherwise, for personal projects and startups (really, all of my startup ideas would be complete non-starters if Google didn't exist). Just beware that if you can Google the answers, the skill is a commodity, and that the real economic gains come from knowing things that nobody else knows.
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- personjerry 10y agoWell, those are kinda tied together in the fact that you need to "know what to Google".
- ljw1001 10y agoWhen I'm trying to do something 'big', i start with the technical papers on the subject. Often, I get those by finding the syllabus of a graduate class (or classes) in the field. Now that I understand the big picture/state of the art, I spend more time looking for specific techniques using Google and/or Stack Overflow.
- HillaryBriss 10y agoLike others here, I depend heavily on Google searches while programming. Sometimes it's useful just to see how Google tries to autocomplete a search phrase I've started to type.
- nathanasmith 10y agoMore often than not I will very deliberately type my search phrase one character at a time paying careful attention to all the autocompleted results. Very useful habit to get into as I have solved quite a few problems much faster than had I gone down the rabbit hole of my original query.
- HillaryBriss 10y agoReally cool. I'll try that.
- nokeya 10y agoGDD - Google Driven Development
- gotchange 10y agoYou mean Google Aided Development (GAD) with AutoGAD as the promised culmination/nirvana of our field.
- jupiter90000 10y agoFor programmers that were coding before good search engines: what did you do when you wanted to look up an error, etc back then? Crack open a tome for the language? Just curious as I can't imagine it was easy.
- teh_klev 10y agoFor me it was Altavista and Usenet and DeJaNews [0] (which indexed usenet). Before that it was hard copy manuals and phone-a-friend. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups#Deja_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups#Deja_News
- mlvljr 10y agoYou get MSDN on 3+ CDs, do a full install and make couple searches using the built-in search.
- BuckRogers 10y agoFor the most part you were on your own. I used books myself since I didn't have colleagues back then. But software was in many ways simpler. The complexity was in squeezing out performance rather than piles of abstraction layers on top of one another. Knowing the hardware was more important and that was gleamed through trial and error. The internet enabled the complexity that made software development dependent on it.
- grifter2000 10y agoHonestly? Yeah. I printed a lot of man pages and docs out, kept my references closer at hand than I do now, and made a lot of handwritten notes to help bury peculiarities and API into my swiss cheese brain.
- reitanqild 10y agoI might not be the best qualified but 1. Yes, 2. Wrote around it.
- dozzie 10y agoYes, the general rule was to actually understand what the error means, and if that didn't solve the problem, where it occurred and how did the thing get in the erroneous state (the thing called "debugging").
- agumonkey 10y agoI route 90% of my searches through duckduckgo: "%term !g"
- BinaryIdiot 10y agoIt's amazing how much productivity is killed when you have to work in an environment, such as a SCIF, where you have zero internet access nor can you use any devices that could connect to the internet. It's certainly made me more resourceful but I don't think it's something a developer should put themselves through if they don't have to. I must use Google dozens of times a day :)
- BuckRogers 10y agoNo. We use DuckDuckGo. !sp if we want to see Google results.
- dsv 10y agoif you search "1. netty tutorial" i think you arent a experienced programmer, you are a experienced googler
- eburg 10y agoI wouldn't be so sure ...In fact, Google recruits people who search for certain programming languages/terms. Pretty cool actually - a "secret invitation" suddenly appears within the search results and the candidate has to accept (and pass) a programming "challenge" to further qualify. http://thehustle.co/the-secret-google-interview-that-landed-me-a-job http://thehustle.co/the-secret-google-interview-that-landed-...
- makecheck 10y agoYes, Google is actually crucial. I didn’t realize how uniquely good Google’s programming results were until I tried Bing or DuckDuckGo and was left confused because their top results didn’t even mention some pretty significant page on a target subject. I am however noticing a trend that I don’t like in Google results: they are trying to interpret pages more and more instead of just being a proxy. (No thanks, Google, I don’t want your attempt at a pretty summary of a Wikipedia page or StackOverflow post; the link will do nicely. Besides, it is just a little obnoxious to lift content from other sites that may prevent people from visiting those sites entirely.) Google is not my sole search tool though. I still find it faster to search offline for a lot of things; for instance, if you have a Mac and haven’t tried something like Dash for quick access to API documentation, you are really missing a potential productivity boost. And, offline search helps a lot on airplanes.
- developer2 10y agoThe "interpreting", as you put it, can be really odd at times. I tend to think that in the majority of cases, it works perfectly and you do in fact get your answer without even having to click through to the site. Whether this is a Good Thing™ or a Bad Thing™ is left to each individual's discretion. It's a little funny when the interpretation doesn't show anything useful. I've noticed this is often the case when they rip an html table out of the document and show partial rows/columns in the result set. They'll frequently display the column that contains your search term (the "key" so to speak), but exclude the column that contains the matching information you're looking for (the "value"). Other times, though less frequently, there are "answers" to your search query that just make absolutely no sense.
- HillaryBriss 10y agoHow many IDEs _lack_ a context menu containing a "Search" or "Search with Google" item nowadays?
- d23 10y agoAfter doing a lot of interviewing, particularly when asking the same question over and over again, I've noticed the quality of what an interviewee decides to Google varies greatly and can give a lot of insight that just solving the problem alone can't. I've been amazed by some of the incomprehensible things people Google, even among those with the supposed same credentials, skillsets, and backgrounds. Aside from whether or not they can do the actual problem, it seems to be a good proxy for skill. You can quickly distinguish between those that copy-paste their way to a solution and those that thoughtfully attempt to solve the underlying problem. Seeing what they choose to research, and sometimes having to step in and after a while and say "it seems like this is talking about X, which doesn't have much to do with this problem," speaks volumes about the candidate.
- ahmedbaracat 10y agoWould love to know more about what you noticed from seeing the choice of what to search for. Care to share some examples?
- d23 10y agoI saw a candidate, when working on a problem involving writing a simple TCP server, Google the phrase "osx port 11211". He was wondering why his tcp server was getting a connection refused message when he tried to start it. Turns out, he had copied and pasted client code from an example rather than server code. I saw another candidate Google "socket get command line arguments" and then stare at a stack overflow answer for a few minutes that had absolutely nothing to do with the problem. What they were attempting to do was just read data from a socket. Some people just seem to throw things at the wall to see what sticks.
- DanielDent 10y agoI've been finding Google less useful in the last little while. It taunts me and tells me that I'm sorry Daniel, I've decided to exclude the most important keyword from your query. Domain-specific search tools - e.g. for programming, Dash.app - have become an increased part of my workflow partially because Google simply isn't giving me the results I am looking for.
- psyklic 10y agoPut keywords in quotes and Google will not exclude them.
- DanielDent 10y agoThank you, that's a helpful tip! I used to use many modifiers for my Google queries, but Google dropped support for many of them, and doesn't seem to document comprehensively what they actually support from day to day. I wish excluded keywords were the only frustration. Their index seems to have gotten considerably worse at dealing with any somewhat "long-tail" query. I'm not sure why. I suspect they've won the spam battle by aggressively purging from their index, but in doing so they've lost the spam war because the false positive rate on their approach is way too high. Or maybe I'm completely off base.
- striking 10y agoMy favorite modifier removal: Currently, you can use - to exclude keywords. Once upon a time, you could use + to require a keyword... until Google+ came out, and + became how you would search for people's profiles. sigh
- developer2 10y agoThis. I can't believe someone approved removing the use of "+" as a search operator. It was at the very core of searching Google. It took months before I found out you needed to double-quote "every" "single" "damn" "individual" "word" to force searching by inclusion.
- blue_dinner 10y agoIt's especially good for hangups on some new library that needs to be used.
- takno 10y agoI probably Google more for questions about Netty than I do for anything else in Java. I've never seen such a useful library with such terrible documentation
- nayshins 10y agoThe Netty documentation really is terrible. Have you read Netty In Action? That book made the framework much clearer.
- pjc50 10y agoWhen trying to find things in MSDN, it's often faster to Google it than it is to use the internal search. I can load and read a StackOverflow page before an MSDN page has even loaded.
- haberman 10y agoGoogle lets you prune already-solved parts of the search space. I have a deep understanding of the technologies I work with, but that doesn't mean I remember the three lines of code that you use to slurp a file into an STL string, for example. Stuff like that isn't worth the brain space. I guess I'm just restating the Einstein quote more verbosely, but it's absolutely true.
- SatvikBeri 10y ago1 query for every 10 lines of code? 12 years in, and I'm closer to 10 query for every 1 line I write.
- jerryhuang100 10y agonew series from 'O RLY': https://m.imgur.com/gallery/vqUQ5 https://m.imgur.com/gallery/vqUQ5
- verytrivial 10y agoExperienced programmers probably also have a good feel for whether the problem they're having is truly unique (and not worth searching for), whether others will be able to articulate the problem, and how long it might take to solve the issue from first principles, hence how much effort is worth investing in the Google excavation.
- Ensorceled 10y agoMost experienced programmers also have a good feel for how much harder it is to write a solid, tested, scalable module yourself than integrate a open source solution, even if it's not perfect.
- therealjumbo 10y ago>Most experienced programmers also have a good feel for how much harder it is to write a solid, tested, scalable module yourself than integrate a open source solution, even if it's not perfect. Funny story, when I was just starting out in this field, my client wanted his chip to communicate with a sensor that was already on his board. This was at the time, a brand new, unreleased product. Because our hardware engineering department didn't like to communicate with the software engineering department the CPU they chose for the project didn't support i2c, but they sensor they chose (out of many thousands of different sensors from different manufacturers) only communicated over i2c. At the time I was obviously very frustrated with the hardware engineers so I did a simple search for other sensors in the same category. Most of them would communicate over a handful of different protocols, it just so happens that the one they picked only supported i2c. So, since I was just starting out and my client was breathing down my neck for access to the sensor that he paid for, I figured I didn't have enough time to write my own bit-bang software driver for i2c. Instead, I would just find one on google... So the driver I picked had a really tricky bug in it where it was bit-shifting the address of the device it was supposed to be communicating with. A logic analyzer came in really handy here. So my "solution" was, instead of fixing the bug properly, I just manually bit-shifted the address the opposite direction, and then the driver bit-shifted it back. At first I used the "<<" operator, right before the address went out on the wire. That didn't work, since the compiler optimizations ripped out my bit-shift command. So I manually did the shift and just put the "fixed" address in the define. I estimate, that had hardware and software engineering communicated better, and worked together better, we could have shaved half the development time off of that project. Such a waste.
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- ape4 10y agoSort of related... is google case sensitive for things like this? Of course, CASE MATTERS often in programming.
- ilaksh 10y agoI wonder if maybe some geniuses could parse out all of the code on Stack Overflow and connect it to some knowledge graph, connect that with Google's knowledge graph, and integrate everything into a giant programming problem solving deep learning system with Deep Mind/Tensor Flow. Or something. It just seems like people are googling, landing on Stack Overflow, and solving the same problems so many times.. especially if you could somehow follow through from the code on the screen, the google searches, pages landed on, and then the code or commands that got entered in.. I think that a lot of these recurring questions or problems could almost be solved/programmed by an AI. Maybe if you could get a web extension running on thousands of developers computers.. maybe for Chromebooks if it could read the code out of crosh.. then monitor all of the searches and coding/terminal commands and create a giant deep learning/reinforcement learning network thing out of that. Or maybe for monitoring the terminal code and commands some kind of background terminal program would be needed. Maybe ttylog or screen or tailing a tty device or something.
- Ensorceled 10y agoOne of the more frustrating parts of my job is dealing with junior and intermediate programmers who spin their wheels try to figure it out themselves rather than google it. Things like spending several hours on a problem where copy/pasting the error into google yields a github issue complete with a work around or writing a boat load of code when there already exists a package or plugin that does exactly that. The worst is when a google search would have revealed that our chosen framework already built in the desired feature they just spent the afternoon writing.
- ArkyBeagle 10y agoFWIW, even in the 1980s, people on the team had CompuServe accounts and we raided those mercilessly. Where do you find junior programmers who don't Google with impunity?
- Ensorceled 10y agoThey were hired by my client(s) :-P
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- nemock 10y agoI really hope people don't think this is a surprise. Before the web, Mac programmers relied on a set of HyperCard stacks from Apple to look up function calls and all kinds of obscure info. It was awesome. Every programmer I've ever known since the 1980s has always had reference materials within easy reach. That's just smart.
- josephcooney 10y agoMy take on the same topic: http://jcooney.net/post/2013/08/29/Good-Developer-Good-Googler.aspx http://jcooney.net/post/2013/08/29/Good-Developer-Good-Googl... I'm in 100% agreement.
- k__ 10y ago1. Google if someone had the same problem and fixed it. 2. Hope you're using OSS software and simply browse the source to find answers. The second approach is a bit slower at first, but after you dismantled a bunch of repos it becomes natural, you get faster and the answers you find are more reliable.
- toast0 10y agoHaving done enough of the second approach, I find it hard to understand why people do the first -- why see what people wrote about what something does when you can just see what it does. Even man pages are some amount of here say, versus inspecting the code. That said, I do web search some specific terms frequently to get to certain documentation that I trust, SMS search is the easiest way to get there consistently.
- k__ 10y agoWell, people think if they're using libs they couldn't write themselves, they don't think they could understand the code. For example, when I used Leaflet, I had no idea how this whole geo stuff worked, so I assumed that the code would be like higher math to me.
- toast0 10y agoThere's plenty of things that I can't write that I can understand. Even if I can't understand it, I can look and see what it's expecting for arguments and figure out why it doesn't like what ever thing I sent that was probably dumb.
- ebbv 10y agoI would go so far as to say anyone who brags about not using Google to look for answers (or looks down on someone who does so readily) is worse off for it. Nobody can know all the answers to every problem they will run into (this goes for any profession, not just programming) -- the first step if you don't have a quick answer yourself should be to search the internet for answers others have come up with, or at least more information. That doesn't mean you just copy and paste whatever you find. But it means you are now more informed than you were before and can come to a better, faster solution.
- wslh 10y agoThe only issue is the need to solve captchas because Google thinks you are scraping them. I don't know if I am experienced or not (beyond the numbers of years programming) but I am sure "search engine oriented programming" give you a lot of advantages and connect dots that take years if you follow other routes.
- CM30 10y agoI'm not exactly an experienced programmer by any means, but I definitely use Google frequently. Sometimes with that 'site:stackexchange.com' or 'site:stackoverflow.com' operator added in because I know Stack Overflow usually tends to have a lot of the answers to these queries. And then there's the CMS/framework search that might actually be more common than looking for Stack Overflow/forum/social media answers to questions. You know, where you're working with WordPress/Drupal/Joomla and can't remember what that one function or class is called that you need to use for some use case or another. Cue more Google searching, usually in conjunction with the wiki/documentation/codex/whatever it's called.
- hoodie 10y agoI use Bing. Mostly for Bing Rewards, which essentially gives me a free Starbucks ~every month. But now I'm finding their search engine isn't that terrible.
- rmtew 10y agoBack before decent search engines, there was gopher or ftp search. I used to search for function names or some part of some API in gopher (or ftp search), and find source code in projects where the code was already in use. Then use that to get hints about where I was going wrong. Google and StackOverflow fill a much wider niche however.
- ataias 10y agoI use Google all the time when programming. It is just so true... good to know it is similar with others.