9 ms·

Lawyer Submits Brief Partially in Klingon for Paramount Language Lawsuit

128 points by gortok 10y ago

plank 10y ago
OK, so if Paramount loses (as I would expect), does this then mean that the lawsuit between Oracle and Google around speaking the language 'Java' gets an interesting precedent?
- brianwawok 10y ago
  I am not sure APIs being subject to copyright and pretend languages being subject to copyright are really the same argument?
  - saizai 10y ago
    It's actually pretty related. Expect some articles in the near future that address this exact issue. (I can't in this context, since LCS can't take position on API issues, and I won't scoop our press contacts.)
- andreasvc 10y ago
  Isn't it a crucial feature of a precedent that it actually precedes the question to be resolved?
  - Tenhundfeld 10y ago
    Or does it just require that one judgement precedes the other? Imagine two related suits filed within weeks of each other, A & B. B, the later-filed one, gets resolved quickly, for whatever reason, maybe it has a narrower focus. It seems the lawyers and judge in A, filed-earlier but still ongoing, could look to B for precedent since it is a relevant piece of settled law. IANAL, and I can see arguments on both sides of the issue, depending on the exact matter under discussion. But logically, it seems that the judgement is what matters most for precedent, not when the suit was filed or when the incidents happened. It's an interesting question though. I hope a lawyer can set us straight.
- gortok 10y ago
  I don't believe so, the brief covers this claim: > Thus, this case should not be confused with the recent litigation over the Java computer language. As observed by the Federal Circuit, that case “was not a situation where Oracle was selecting among preordained names and phrases to create its packages.” Oracle Am., Inc. v. Google Inc., 750 F.3d 1339, 1361 (Fed. Cir. 2014) cert den’d 135 S. Ct. 2887 (U.S. 2015). Here, speakers of Klingon are limited to preordained words and syntax. (Page 12) This is called the 'doctrine of merger', I believe (IANAL): > Furthermore, the doctrine of merger provides that if an idea “can only be expressed in a limited number of ways,” those means of expression “cannot be protected, lest one author own the idea itself.” (page 9) Since Klingon words are not an exact transliteration of english words (not a 1-to-1 translation), you can't express the same ideas in multiple ways; so if the language were to be copyrightable, only the person who owns the languages could express those ideas, which seems patently silly. (My legal analysis isn't; so I'm probably off on exactly why; that's why I spent most of my time quoting from the brief).
  - saizai 10y ago
    Take a look at Charles Duan's recent articles for Slate and Wired, which address this. Google his name + Klingon, Oracle, Lexmark, and/or Arista and you'll get relevant articles.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I can only imagine the difficulties and challenges faced by those folks who could only ever speak in nouns. Really, really long nouns in sentences stated very indirectly.
  - saizai 10y ago
    Take a look at Kēlen. It's a conlang with no verbs. Yes really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_9r3bwAx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_9r3bwAx8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len http://kelen.conlang.org/ http://kelen.conlang.org/
  - Vivtek 10y ago
    Don't underestimate the human capacity for circumlocution. The Hungarian language has no word for "to have". Seriously. And they do just fine without it.
    - saizai 10y ago
      Russian doesn't normally use a verb for 'to have' either. It's mainly expressed as a preposition (_u_).
- saizai 10y ago
  See: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/06/oracle_v_google_klingon_and_copyrighting_language.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/0... https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/in-a-lawsuit-over-copyright-in-klingon-here-come-the-klingon-speakers/ https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/in-a-lawsuit...
chris_wot 10y ago
What we have here is one of the true great footnotes in legal history: "2. Mr. Okrand himself has asserted that the Klingon language, tlhIngan Hol, was received by him from a captured Klingon named Maltz. See Okrand, Marc, The Klingon Dictionary (1985). Thus, Plaintiffs may be estopped from asserting otherwise for the purposes of this litigation. See Arica Inst., Inc. v. Palmer, 970 F.2d 1067, 1075 (2d Cir. 1992) (author who disavowed inventing enneagrams publicly cannot claim invention inconsistently to improve a litigation position)."
- ikeboy 10y ago
  As long as they can convince the court that their original claim was not meant seriously, this shouldn't matter.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    The fact that this does not detract in any way from this filing just further attests to its greatness.
- HCIdivision17 10y ago
  IANAL, so I'm hoping I'm understanding this right: because Okrand wrote the dictionary, and in it claimed that he learned it from an actual Klingon, he may not now say he invented it? The argument kinda being, if the language is real, and he wrote a non-fiction authoratative book on it... then he can't be inconsistent about the origins? It's hard for me to wrap my head around it, but it's hilariously clever if I'm reading it right.
  - BryantD 10y ago
    That's just the lawyer being clever -- it's obvious that claims made in a fictional context don't have the kind of weight he's ascribing to them. It's funny, though.
  - AimHere 10y ago
    That's the gist. This is the lawyer having (even more) fun with the lawsuit, because why the hell wouldn't you have fun in a job like this? I'm pretty sure that he and the judge both know that Okrand's claim was a fiction/joke and that this isn't a serious legal notion to be ruled upon.
saizai 10y ago
See also LCS press release: http://conlang.org/axanar/ http://conlang.org/axanar/ Disclosure: I founded the LCS, directed our participation as amicus in this case, and am press contact for this issue. Marc Randazza wrote the awesome amicus brief (linked in OP) pro bono.
- busterarm 10y ago
  Mark Randazza the same lawyer who installed malware on peoples' computers and tried to extort money from them for illegally downloading gay porn? https://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2015/07/09/marc-randazza-must-pay-600k-for-clear-and-serious-breaches-of-fiduciary-duty-against-his-former-client/ https://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2015/07/09/marc-randazza-mu... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/how-copyright-lawyer-marc-randazza-got-famous-lost-friends-and-went-broke/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/how-copyright-law... (ransomware, even - of the 'pay me $4k within 30 days or I'll disable your computer' variety...it doesn't get any more scummy)
  - hlieberman 10y ago
    For what it's worth, Marc has been my lawyer for several years now, and I have never found him less than fully honest. In fact, I have found him to have nothing but contempt for copyright and patent trolls. Righthaven, in fact, was taken down in no small part due to his work. http://vegasinc.com/business/legal/2012/mar/14/r-j-copyright-be-auctioned-following-righthavens-c/ http://vegasinc.com/business/legal/2012/mar/14/r-j-copyright...
  - saizai 10y ago
    Sorry, but I don't know anything about that either way, so I can't comment.
    - ry_ry 10y ago
      Would you use him again - even on a pro bono basis - given this info? I'm nosey and genuinely curious by the way, this is in no way internet snark.
calgoo 10y ago
Is this a standard layout for a legal / court document? The lack of padding, especially on the right side really bothers me while reading for some reason.
- saizai 10y ago
  Compare plaintiff and defendant briefs if you like. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzmetJxi-p0VZUJaQ2ZOYVZCQVk#list https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzmetJxi-p0VZUJaQ2ZO... has all the filings.
  - deirdresm 10y ago
    Thanks! I added an index here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11698292/pvax/index.html https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11698292/pvax/index.html
    - saizai 10y ago
      That's very neat. Could you email me (eg press@conlang.org) so we can collaborate / keep updated?
- saizai 10y ago
  Also,see C.D. CA.'s local civil rule 11 et seq for their format requirements. (FWIW, they're rather more detailed than is usual for other courts.) http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/documents/LRs%20Effective%202015%20December%201%20-%20Chapter%201_0.pdf http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/documents/L...
if_by_whisky 10y ago
ITT: IANAL ad nauseum
throwanem 10y ago
I'm not sure whether, in all the brouhaha over this lawsuit, anyone has paid much attention to the fan film around which it revolves. "Star Trek: Axanar" is currently in production for a mid-2016 release, and the short film/long trailer, "Prelude to Axanar", is a remarkable piece of work in its own right. Don't let the "fan film" label put you off, either; these are professionally produced works, with a compelling storyline and real actors (some of whom will be familiar to fans of the BSG reboot and/or Star Trek: Enterprise), and their take on the Star Trek universe should be a breath of fresh air for anyone frustrated with either Roddenberry's unrealistically optimistic perspective on humanity's future, or JJ Abrams' "lens flare all the things!" brodown. If you're a Star Trek fan at all, you owe it to yourself to at least give Prelude to Axanar a watch: https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA (And as an old Babylon 5 fan, I'm delighted they included a sly reference to that show in Prelude, too. See if you can catch it!)
- saizai 10y ago
  You forgot to link to it: https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA
  - throwanem 10y ago
    I did! Thanks for catching that.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Holy crap! These fan films are getting better and better all the time! I can see why the studios are crapping themselves. No longer are they competing on mere copying, now they are competing on creativity! Seriously, if fans can do this with Star Trek, I wonder if they should take the central precepts of Star Trek, make their own entirely seperate universe and to hell with it - the studios who refuse to continue much loved series can be cut out entirely and fans can make their own series. In fact, they could make their own series but have a central authority to allow for basic continuity but maximise creativity. Now that would be remarkable. The fans could find their own games and spinoffs pretty nicely too.
dreamling 10y ago
Does this have ramifications for Tolkien Elvish?
- saizai 10y ago
  Applies to any conlang, including Quenya et al.

128 points by gortok 10y ago

plank 10y ago

OK, so if Paramount loses (as I would expect), does this then mean that the lawsuit between Oracle and Google around speaking the language 'Java' gets an interesting precedent?

brianwawok 10y ago
I am not sure APIs being subject to copyright and pretend languages being subject to copyright are really the same argument?
- saizai 10y ago
  It's actually pretty related. Expect some articles in the near future that address this exact issue. (I can't in this context, since LCS can't take position on API issues, and I won't scoop our press contacts.)
andreasvc 10y ago
Isn't it a crucial feature of a precedent that it actually precedes the question to be resolved?
- Tenhundfeld 10y ago
  Or does it just require that one judgement precedes the other? Imagine two related suits filed within weeks of each other, A & B. B, the later-filed one, gets resolved quickly, for whatever reason, maybe it has a narrower focus. It seems the lawyers and judge in A, filed-earlier but still ongoing, could look to B for precedent since it is a relevant piece of settled law. IANAL, and I can see arguments on both sides of the issue, depending on the exact matter under discussion. But logically, it seems that the judgement is what matters most for precedent, not when the suit was filed or when the incidents happened. It's an interesting question though. I hope a lawyer can set us straight.
gortok 10y ago
I don't believe so, the brief covers this claim: > Thus, this case should not be confused with the recent litigation over the Java computer language. As observed by the Federal Circuit, that case “was not a situation where Oracle was selecting among preordained names and phrases to create its packages.” Oracle Am., Inc. v. Google Inc., 750 F.3d 1339, 1361 (Fed. Cir. 2014) cert den’d 135 S. Ct. 2887 (U.S. 2015). Here, speakers of Klingon are limited to preordained words and syntax. (Page 12) This is called the 'doctrine of merger', I believe (IANAL): > Furthermore, the doctrine of merger provides that if an idea “can only be expressed in a limited number of ways,” those means of expression “cannot be protected, lest one author own the idea itself.” (page 9) Since Klingon words are not an exact transliteration of english words (not a 1-to-1 translation), you can't express the same ideas in multiple ways; so if the language were to be copyrightable, only the person who owns the languages could express those ideas, which seems patently silly. (My legal analysis isn't; so I'm probably off on exactly why; that's why I spent most of my time quoting from the brief).
- saizai 10y ago
  Take a look at Charles Duan's recent articles for Slate and Wired, which address this. Google his name + Klingon, Oracle, Lexmark, and/or Arista and you'll get relevant articles.
chris_wot 10y ago
I can only imagine the difficulties and challenges faced by those folks who could only ever speak in nouns. Really, really long nouns in sentences stated very indirectly.
- saizai 10y ago
  Take a look at Kēlen. It's a conlang with no verbs. Yes really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_9r3bwAx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_9r3bwAx8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%93len http://kelen.conlang.org/ http://kelen.conlang.org/
- Vivtek 10y ago
  Don't underestimate the human capacity for circumlocution. The Hungarian language has no word for "to have". Seriously. And they do just fine without it.
  - saizai 10y ago
    Russian doesn't normally use a verb for 'to have' either. It's mainly expressed as a preposition (_u_).
saizai 10y ago
See: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/06/oracle_v_google_klingon_and_copyrighting_language.html http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/0... https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/in-a-lawsuit-over-copyright-in-klingon-here-come-the-klingon-speakers/ https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/in-a-lawsuit...

chris_wot 10y ago

What we have here is one of the true great footnotes in legal history: "2. Mr. Okrand himself has asserted that the Klingon language, tlhIngan Hol, was received by him from a captured Klingon named Maltz. See Okrand, Marc, The Klingon Dictionary (1985). Thus, Plaintiffs may be estopped from asserting otherwise for the purposes of this litigation. See Arica Inst., Inc. v. Palmer, 970 F.2d 1067, 1075 (2d Cir. 1992) (author who disavowed inventing enneagrams publicly cannot claim invention inconsistently to improve a litigation position)."

ikeboy 10y ago
As long as they can convince the court that their original claim was not meant seriously, this shouldn't matter.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  The fact that this does not detract in any way from this filing just further attests to its greatness.
HCIdivision17 10y ago
IANAL, so I'm hoping I'm understanding this right: because Okrand wrote the dictionary, and in it claimed that he learned it from an actual Klingon, he may not now say he invented it? The argument kinda being, if the language is real, and he wrote a non-fiction authoratative book on it... then he can't be inconsistent about the origins? It's hard for me to wrap my head around it, but it's hilariously clever if I'm reading it right.
- BryantD 10y ago
  That's just the lawyer being clever -- it's obvious that claims made in a fictional context don't have the kind of weight he's ascribing to them. It's funny, though.
- AimHere 10y ago
  That's the gist. This is the lawyer having (even more) fun with the lawsuit, because why the hell wouldn't you have fun in a job like this? I'm pretty sure that he and the judge both know that Okrand's claim was a fiction/joke and that this isn't a serious legal notion to be ruled upon.

saizai 10y ago

See also LCS press release: http://conlang.org/axanar/ http://conlang.org/axanar/ Disclosure: I founded the LCS, directed our participation as amicus in this case, and am press contact for this issue. Marc Randazza wrote the awesome amicus brief (linked in OP) pro bono.

busterarm 10y ago
Mark Randazza the same lawyer who installed malware on peoples' computers and tried to extort money from them for illegally downloading gay porn? https://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2015/07/09/marc-randazza-must-pay-600k-for-clear-and-serious-breaches-of-fiduciary-duty-against-his-former-client/ https://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/2015/07/09/marc-randazza-mu... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/how-copyright-lawyer-marc-randazza-got-famous-lost-friends-and-went-broke/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/11/how-copyright-law... (ransomware, even - of the 'pay me $4k within 30 days or I'll disable your computer' variety...it doesn't get any more scummy)
- hlieberman 10y ago
  For what it's worth, Marc has been my lawyer for several years now, and I have never found him less than fully honest. In fact, I have found him to have nothing but contempt for copyright and patent trolls. Righthaven, in fact, was taken down in no small part due to his work. http://vegasinc.com/business/legal/2012/mar/14/r-j-copyright-be-auctioned-following-righthavens-c/ http://vegasinc.com/business/legal/2012/mar/14/r-j-copyright...
- saizai 10y ago
  Sorry, but I don't know anything about that either way, so I can't comment.
  - ry_ry 10y ago
    Would you use him again - even on a pro bono basis - given this info? I'm nosey and genuinely curious by the way, this is in no way internet snark.

calgoo 10y ago

Is this a standard layout for a legal / court document? The lack of padding, especially on the right side really bothers me while reading for some reason.

saizai 10y ago
Compare plaintiff and defendant briefs if you like. https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzmetJxi-p0VZUJaQ2ZOYVZCQVk#list https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzmetJxi-p0VZUJaQ2ZO... has all the filings.
- deirdresm 10y ago
  Thanks! I added an index here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11698292/pvax/index.html https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11698292/pvax/index.html
  - saizai 10y ago
    That's very neat. Could you email me (eg press@conlang.org) so we can collaborate / keep updated?
saizai 10y ago
Also,see C.D. CA.'s local civil rule 11 et seq for their format requirements. (FWIW, they're rather more detailed than is usual for other courts.) http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/documents/LRs%20Effective%202015%20December%201%20-%20Chapter%201_0.pdf http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/documents/L...

if_by_whisky 10y ago

ITT: IANAL ad nauseum

throwanem 10y ago

I'm not sure whether, in all the brouhaha over this lawsuit, anyone has paid much attention to the fan film around which it revolves. "Star Trek: Axanar" is currently in production for a mid-2016 release, and the short film/long trailer, "Prelude to Axanar", is a remarkable piece of work in its own right. Don't let the "fan film" label put you off, either; these are professionally produced works, with a compelling storyline and real actors (some of whom will be familiar to fans of the BSG reboot and/or Star Trek: Enterprise), and their take on the Star Trek universe should be a breath of fresh air for anyone frustrated with either Roddenberry's unrealistically optimistic perspective on humanity's future, or JJ Abrams' "lens flare all the things!" brodown. If you're a Star Trek fan at all, you owe it to yourself to at least give Prelude to Axanar a watch: https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA (And as an old Babylon 5 fan, I'm delighted they included a sly reference to that show in Prelude, too. See if you can catch it!)

saizai 10y ago
You forgot to link to it: https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA https://youtu.be/1W1_8IV8uhA
- throwanem 10y ago
  I did! Thanks for catching that.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Holy crap! These fan films are getting better and better all the time! I can see why the studios are crapping themselves. No longer are they competing on mere copying, now they are competing on creativity! Seriously, if fans can do this with Star Trek, I wonder if they should take the central precepts of Star Trek, make their own entirely seperate universe and to hell with it - the studios who refuse to continue much loved series can be cut out entirely and fans can make their own series. In fact, they could make their own series but have a central authority to allow for basic continuity but maximise creativity. Now that would be remarkable. The fans could find their own games and spinoffs pretty nicely too.

dreamling 10y ago

Does this have ramifications for Tolkien Elvish?

saizai 10y ago
Applies to any conlang, including Quenya et al.