4 ms·

What about refunds? With Paypal you know you're getting the same amount back, in the same currency, as if you haven't bought anything at all. Given the fluctuat

by Grue3 11y ago

What about refunds? With Paypal you know you're getting the same amount back, in the same currency, as if you haven't bought anything at all. Given the fluctuating nature of Bitcoin, surely that's not possible?

fjidodhofjf 11y ago
Another example of how economicly illiterate anti Bitcoin Advocates are. Go look at USD/YEN movement, 1-3% movements occur daily, if you were to purchase YEN with USd and later refund to USd you could end up significantly up or down. But the wealth YEN represents is many many magnitudes greater than Bitcoin. When YEN appreciates by 2% that influences hundreds of millions of people and business, and guess who is pulling that lever, a small cabal of corrupt bankers.
VMG 11y ago
Why not? You just calculate the refund amount based on the USDBTC rate.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
krisdol 11y ago
Can you ever take money out of steam?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Ntrails 11y ago
  Buy hats with steam credit, sell on a third party marketplace. Lose n% in fees and price differentials. It is done completely legitimately - you're just not getting money from steam
- MLR 11y ago
  You buy items from the marketplace (normally keys) and then sell them on a third party site or arrange a deal with a private buyer, I think it normally nets you around 70-80% of the original amount but I'm not up to date with it.
StavrosK 11y ago
I just asked for a refund, because the game was terrible. I asked for the refund to be sent to my wallet, there was an option to get Bitcoin back. I think that, for the wallet, they refund you the game's store price.
- chii 11y ago
  this seems like a good way to launder bitcoins. Unless if you got back _the same_ coins you spent - i guess steam holding on to your coins for 2hrs~ isn't that big of a risk, rather than immediately swapping it out for cash.
  - mbmott 11y ago
    Not the case. The bitcoin you paid in and the bitcoin refunded to you are tied directly to your real identity, so I'm not sure what value "laundering" would have. There are no dirty bitcoins--see the U.S. Gov sale of the Silk Road coins as proof of this. Bitcoin does have mixing services that would "launder" or obfuscate the link between bitcoin and your real identity, which does provide value for some users.
    - Fogest 11y ago
      But you don't have to have valid data on your steam account?
      - mbmott 11y ago
        As far as I know you can't make a purchase without having valid payment data. There might be a work around, but probably not via Bitcoin payments. Bitpay is definitely subject to KYC / AML compliance.
        ryanlol 11y ago
        > As far as I know you can't make a purchase without having valid payment data. What is "valid payment data"? How do they validate this data? >Bitpay is definitely subject to KYC / AML compliance. Why is that relevant?
Shalle135 11y ago
I read another article about this previously, and steam themselves never touch the bitcoin they use some 3rd party. And there for they probably can't refund it in BTC and the fluctuation wont matter.
Scirra_Tom 11y ago
I imagine you'd get the refund of the USD (or whatever your currency is) equivalent at time of purchase in your Steam wallet.
kentt 11y ago
There is the same sort of issue with any foreign currency. As a Canadian, I'm often buying things with USD. I don't expect to covered for fluctuations in the CAD/USD if I'm refunded.
csense 11y ago
See here: https://help.bitpay.com/15596-payments-refunds/how-do-i-refund-a-fully-paid-invoice?from_search=12707112 https://help.bitpay.com/15596-payments-refunds/how-do-i-refu... It seems that BitPay (the payment provider used Steam and many other merchants who accept Bitcoins) gets a dollar valued refund amount from the merchant (so you can do partial refunds). Then they calculate the Bitcoin value of the refund amount at the current exchange rate and send that much bitcoin back to the user. There's an extra Bitcoin transaction fee involved. I'm sure BitPay keeps a few thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin on hand to pay refunds, and I'm sure refunds are rare enough that any frictional costs are much smaller than what they bring in through their own fees. So basically the user is taking on the exchange rate risk -- if you buy a game, Bitcoins go up 20% overnight and then you request a refund, your refund amount will be less Bitcoins than you originally paid. If they did it any other way then it would be subject to abuses that would allow users and merchants to collude to extract money from BitPay (BitPay would essentially be writing options which would allow users to buy back bitcoins that were sold on their behalf in the past at the same price they were sold, even if that's substantially different from the current market price).

by Grue3 11y ago

fjidodhofjf 11y ago

Another example of how economicly illiterate anti Bitcoin Advocates are. Go look at USD/YEN movement, 1-3% movements occur daily, if you were to purchase YEN with USd and later refund to USd you could end up significantly up or down. But the wealth YEN represents is many many magnitudes greater than Bitcoin. When YEN appreciates by 2% that influences hundreds of millions of people and business, and guess who is pulling that lever, a small cabal of corrupt bankers.

VMG 11y ago

Why not? You just calculate the refund amount based on the USDBTC rate.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

krisdol 11y ago

Can you ever take money out of steam?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Ntrails 11y ago
Buy hats with steam credit, sell on a third party marketplace. Lose n% in fees and price differentials. It is done completely legitimately - you're just not getting money from steam
MLR 11y ago
You buy items from the marketplace (normally keys) and then sell them on a third party site or arrange a deal with a private buyer, I think it normally nets you around 70-80% of the original amount but I'm not up to date with it.

StavrosK 11y ago

I just asked for a refund, because the game was terrible. I asked for the refund to be sent to my wallet, there was an option to get Bitcoin back. I think that, for the wallet, they refund you the game's store price.

chii 11y ago
this seems like a good way to launder bitcoins. Unless if you got back _the same_ coins you spent - i guess steam holding on to your coins for 2hrs~ isn't that big of a risk, rather than immediately swapping it out for cash.
- mbmott 11y ago
  Not the case. The bitcoin you paid in and the bitcoin refunded to you are tied directly to your real identity, so I'm not sure what value "laundering" would have. There are no dirty bitcoins--see the U.S. Gov sale of the Silk Road coins as proof of this. Bitcoin does have mixing services that would "launder" or obfuscate the link between bitcoin and your real identity, which does provide value for some users.
  - Fogest 11y ago
    But you don't have to have valid data on your steam account?
    - mbmott 11y ago
      As far as I know you can't make a purchase without having valid payment data. There might be a work around, but probably not via Bitcoin payments. Bitpay is definitely subject to KYC / AML compliance.
      - ryanlol 11y ago
        > As far as I know you can't make a purchase without having valid payment data. What is "valid payment data"? How do they validate this data? >Bitpay is definitely subject to KYC / AML compliance. Why is that relevant?

Shalle135 11y ago

I read another article about this previously, and steam themselves never touch the bitcoin they use some 3rd party. And there for they probably can't refund it in BTC and the fluctuation wont matter.

Scirra_Tom 11y ago

I imagine you'd get the refund of the USD (or whatever your currency is) equivalent at time of purchase in your Steam wallet.

kentt 11y ago

There is the same sort of issue with any foreign currency. As a Canadian, I'm often buying things with USD. I don't expect to covered for fluctuations in the CAD/USD if I'm refunded.

csense 11y ago

See here: https://help.bitpay.com/15596-payments-refunds/how-do-i-refund-a-fully-paid-invoice?from_search=12707112 https://help.bitpay.com/15596-payments-refunds/how-do-i-refu... It seems that BitPay (the payment provider used Steam and many other merchants who accept Bitcoins) gets a dollar valued refund amount from the merchant (so you can do partial refunds). Then they calculate the Bitcoin value of the refund amount at the current exchange rate and send that much bitcoin back to the user. There's an extra Bitcoin transaction fee involved. I'm sure BitPay keeps a few thousand dollars worth of Bitcoin on hand to pay refunds, and I'm sure refunds are rare enough that any frictional costs are much smaller than what they bring in through their own fees. So basically the user is taking on the exchange rate risk -- if you buy a game, Bitcoins go up 20% overnight and then you request a refund, your refund amount will be less Bitcoins than you originally paid. If they did it any other way then it would be subject to abuses that would allow users and merchants to collude to extract money from BitPay (BitPay would essentially be writing options which would allow users to buy back bitcoins that were sold on their behalf in the past at the same price they were sold, even if that's substantially different from the current market price).