5 ms·

Docker on Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 5

101 points by osks 10y ago

terom 10y ago
What about licensing? Does the docker image manifest include machine-readable licensing metadata required for automated licence compliance verification?
- sarnu 10y ago
  That was my first thought, too. At first sight, Windows containers seem to run only on Windows hosts. Maybe the licensing is covered through the hosts' licencse (speculation: you can run n Windows containers if you buy license x for the host OS).
  - taspeotis 10y ago
    > you can run n Windows containers if you buy license x for the host OS Licenses for Windows Server generally convey some rights for virtualization. https://hyperv.veeam.com/blog/virtualization-rights-windows-server-2012-r2/ https://hyperv.veeam.com/blog/virtualization-rights-windows-...
- dsp1234 10y ago
  The main windows server 2016 page has pretty clear guidance on this[0]: --- OSEs/Hyper-V containers DataCenter: Unlimited Standard: 2 ---- Windows Server containers Datacenter: Unlimited Standard: Unlimited --- [0] - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/products/windows-server-2016/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/products/window...
  - terom 10y ago
    What about running Docker containers on desktop/laptop machines during development? It's a major part of the Docker usecase. Trying to keep track of Windows licensing compliance across multiple versions and deployment models is confusing enough as it is. Different sources will give different answers to the same questions when interpreting licensing scenarios, and you can never know unless you get audited (?)
    - justincormack 10y ago
      Currently Windows containers are only available on Server not on desktop at all, hence there is no licensing information available for desktop.
      - SteveLas 10y ago
        Windows Hyper-V Containers are available on the Windows 10 Client, through the insiders program. This is intended for development scenarios. You can run your Windows Containers locally, building up your app/service, then deploying on servers running the Container feature. We're still early in the Windows container development efforts. http://aka.ms/DockerToolsForVS http://aka.ms/DockerToolsForVS. The experience built for Linux containers will support Nano Server as well. In the current Windows insiders program, you can run Nano Server based containers locally, which you can develop .NET core apps against.
    - josteink 10y ago
      Traditionally, you've been allowed near anything for development and testing purposes using an MSDN subscription. I would assume that also applies to VMs or containers.
    - dsp1234 10y ago
      Different sources will give different answers to the same questions when interpreting licensing scenarios 1.) Containers are not available on desktop SKUs. So there is no licensing consideration for Windows 10. If they later add containers to Windows 10, then they'll release licensing rules at that time. 2.) If you are running a server OS for your desktop, then the licensing is pretty clear. Hyper-v VM containers follow the same rules as normal hyper-v VMs (1 physical + 2 virtual for standard then each additional VM requires a license, unlimited for datacenter). For Windows Server Containers (which are not hyper-v based), it's even easier, it's unlimited regardless of edition. 3.) As always, the host OS must be licensed fully in order to have the appropriate rights (2016 is moving to core licensing, with a minimum of 8 core licenses per processor, and a minimum of 2 processors). All in all, it's one of the easier features to understand the licensing for since it doesn't directly deal with CALs or internal/external usage rights.
patates 10y ago
If this starts utilizing the "Ubuntu on Windows"[0], I think, with minor modifications, most of the images should already work; which is great. I can't wait to see how containerization (and tools built for orchestration of those) will evolve in the coming years to help dev/devops. [0]: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/03/30/ubuntu-on-windows-the-ubuntu-userspace-for-windows-developers/ https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/03/30/ubuntu-on-windows-the...
- newjersey 10y ago
  Paul Thurrott quoted a Microsoft person that Ubuntu on Windows is a client side thing. It may be possible to use it on Windows server but I believe that is not the meta. I would say it is easier to just spin up an Ubuntu instance than to use Ubuntu on Windows on the server. What are some use cases that you're thinking of? Am I missing something?
  - tracker1 10y ago
    There are two parts... there's the Linux Subsystem for Windows, which is the Linux ABI... Ubuntu for Windows is all the Ubuntu userland running via LSW. It's probable that this Docker system works with LSW as-is.
    - newjersey 10y ago
      My question is why run on Windows? Wouldn't it be better for the host to be GNU/Linux if you don't need any of the functionality that Windows provides? I fail to see the benefit of using Windows on the server unless you need Windows. Even Microsoft send to acknowledge that. I must be missing something.
      - tracker1 10y ago
        They're probably doing it so that docker containers running in Azure infrastructure can be a bit lighter than it currently is. That's probably the main reason. Second, if you are already running windows servers, because you have software/infrastructure that require it, this allows you to also run Docker images, and Linux software without the overhead of full virtualization and/or new hardware. Beyond this, there are a lot of developers running windows either by choice, or because they have software requirements themselves that can leverage this.
toyg 10y ago
The only drawback of the current onslaught of Microsoft activity is the fact that most "enterprise" businesses and software products are completely unprepared or unwilling to move in step. As an integrator, I've barely started seeing Win2012 in production last year, so it will be another 5 years before I can start playing with these new toys. Hell, some people are still chugging along with 2003sp2... and I'm talking Big Business, not some godforsaken countryside school.
- CrLf 10y ago
  And one might argue they are taking the sane approach to the upgrade treadmill. It's easy to forget technology is supposed to solve real problems and that there's no economic incentive to use new toys to solve already solved problems, possibly introducing new issues with less well-known solutions. The fact businesses are extending the life of systems not because they are unwilling to invest in upgrades but because they work just fine is a sign that the industry has reached a good level of maturity. It's a good thing. We should all be working collectively to solve new problems instead of reiterating over the same problems again and again. In the old days of NT4 a 4-year old system would accumulate maintenance costs. Today, Windows 2003 is 13 years old and still pretty serviceable. I'd be more worried about businesses accumulating unsustainable technical debt than accumulating old (but stable) technologies.
  - toyg 10y ago
    I absolutely agree! I guess my complaint is that MS is developing all this new stuff with no regards for the installed userbase -- they are all add-ons for Windows 10 and 2016 Server, rather than standalone cross-version apps that could be deployed sooner on existing infrastructure. It's obviously easier for them, but it means "normal people" will not be able to enjoy most of these advances for a very long time.
  - poooogles 10y ago
    >Today, Windows 2003 is 13 years old and still pretty serviceable. Unless you're maintaining Server 2003 itself, at which point it comes with 13 years worth of problems.
antoncohen 10y ago
One of the claimed benefits of Docker is that developers build and test the same images that are run in production. It seems like multi-platform support negates that. Multi-platform seems like a good direction to go in, so it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
- SteveLas 10y ago
  The target of Multi-Platform support is to allow workloads to target different platforms, but not as a single container can run on both. Consider the scenario: Web Front End built with Node.js, targeting Linux ASP.NET Web API, built with NET Core, targeting Nano Server (Windows) Redis Cache, used for the WebAPI, run as a Linux Container. When you spin up these containers, you should be able to say docker-compose up, and docker, Mesos, ... know how to route the containers to the appropriate hosts. Steve
pjmlp 10y ago
If anything I guess Docker has become Go's killer application, even Microsoft is giving contributions to it as a means to help Docker run better on Windows. I look forward if it can help OCaml as well, given their acquisition of Unikernel Systems.
moogly 10y ago
Any word on this trickling down to Windows 10 too? It'd be unfortunate if you had to run VM-based docker on regular development machines IMO. Probably better to just run Windows Server on those machines in that case.
- SteveLas 10y ago
  See above for Windows Container support (Nano Server) in the current insiders program. However, also note, this is very early, and the experience is a little rough as we stitch together all the moving parts that are coming together for what we believe will be a great local development experience of containerized apps, targeting Linux and Windows workloads.

101 points by osks 10y ago

terom 10y ago

What about licensing? Does the docker image manifest include machine-readable licensing metadata required for automated licence compliance verification?

sarnu 10y ago
That was my first thought, too. At first sight, Windows containers seem to run only on Windows hosts. Maybe the licensing is covered through the hosts' licencse (speculation: you can run n Windows containers if you buy license x for the host OS).
- taspeotis 10y ago
  > you can run n Windows containers if you buy license x for the host OS Licenses for Windows Server generally convey some rights for virtualization. https://hyperv.veeam.com/blog/virtualization-rights-windows-server-2012-r2/ https://hyperv.veeam.com/blog/virtualization-rights-windows-...
dsp1234 10y ago
The main windows server 2016 page has pretty clear guidance on this[0]: --- OSEs/Hyper-V containers DataCenter: Unlimited Standard: 2 ---- Windows Server containers Datacenter: Unlimited Standard: Unlimited --- [0] - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/products/windows-server-2016/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/server-cloud/products/window...
- terom 10y ago
  What about running Docker containers on desktop/laptop machines during development? It's a major part of the Docker usecase. Trying to keep track of Windows licensing compliance across multiple versions and deployment models is confusing enough as it is. Different sources will give different answers to the same questions when interpreting licensing scenarios, and you can never know unless you get audited (?)
  - justincormack 10y ago
    Currently Windows containers are only available on Server not on desktop at all, hence there is no licensing information available for desktop.
    - SteveLas 10y ago
      Windows Hyper-V Containers are available on the Windows 10 Client, through the insiders program. This is intended for development scenarios. You can run your Windows Containers locally, building up your app/service, then deploying on servers running the Container feature. We're still early in the Windows container development efforts. http://aka.ms/DockerToolsForVS http://aka.ms/DockerToolsForVS. The experience built for Linux containers will support Nano Server as well. In the current Windows insiders program, you can run Nano Server based containers locally, which you can develop .NET core apps against.
  - josteink 10y ago
    Traditionally, you've been allowed near anything for development and testing purposes using an MSDN subscription. I would assume that also applies to VMs or containers.
  - dsp1234 10y ago
    Different sources will give different answers to the same questions when interpreting licensing scenarios 1.) Containers are not available on desktop SKUs. So there is no licensing consideration for Windows 10. If they later add containers to Windows 10, then they'll release licensing rules at that time. 2.) If you are running a server OS for your desktop, then the licensing is pretty clear. Hyper-v VM containers follow the same rules as normal hyper-v VMs (1 physical + 2 virtual for standard then each additional VM requires a license, unlimited for datacenter). For Windows Server Containers (which are not hyper-v based), it's even easier, it's unlimited regardless of edition. 3.) As always, the host OS must be licensed fully in order to have the appropriate rights (2016 is moving to core licensing, with a minimum of 8 core licenses per processor, and a minimum of 2 processors). All in all, it's one of the easier features to understand the licensing for since it doesn't directly deal with CALs or internal/external usage rights.

patates 10y ago

If this starts utilizing the "Ubuntu on Windows"[0], I think, with minor modifications, most of the images should already work; which is great. I can't wait to see how containerization (and tools built for orchestration of those) will evolve in the coming years to help dev/devops. [0]: https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/03/30/ubuntu-on-windows-the-ubuntu-userspace-for-windows-developers/ https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/03/30/ubuntu-on-windows-the...

newjersey 10y ago
Paul Thurrott quoted a Microsoft person that Ubuntu on Windows is a client side thing. It may be possible to use it on Windows server but I believe that is not the meta. I would say it is easier to just spin up an Ubuntu instance than to use Ubuntu on Windows on the server. What are some use cases that you're thinking of? Am I missing something?
- tracker1 10y ago
  There are two parts... there's the Linux Subsystem for Windows, which is the Linux ABI... Ubuntu for Windows is all the Ubuntu userland running via LSW. It's probable that this Docker system works with LSW as-is.
  - newjersey 10y ago
    My question is why run on Windows? Wouldn't it be better for the host to be GNU/Linux if you don't need any of the functionality that Windows provides? I fail to see the benefit of using Windows on the server unless you need Windows. Even Microsoft send to acknowledge that. I must be missing something.
    - tracker1 10y ago
      They're probably doing it so that docker containers running in Azure infrastructure can be a bit lighter than it currently is. That's probably the main reason. Second, if you are already running windows servers, because you have software/infrastructure that require it, this allows you to also run Docker images, and Linux software without the overhead of full virtualization and/or new hardware. Beyond this, there are a lot of developers running windows either by choice, or because they have software requirements themselves that can leverage this.

toyg 10y ago

The only drawback of the current onslaught of Microsoft activity is the fact that most "enterprise" businesses and software products are completely unprepared or unwilling to move in step. As an integrator, I've barely started seeing Win2012 in production last year, so it will be another 5 years before I can start playing with these new toys. Hell, some people are still chugging along with 2003sp2... and I'm talking Big Business, not some godforsaken countryside school.

CrLf 10y ago
And one might argue they are taking the sane approach to the upgrade treadmill. It's easy to forget technology is supposed to solve real problems and that there's no economic incentive to use new toys to solve already solved problems, possibly introducing new issues with less well-known solutions. The fact businesses are extending the life of systems not because they are unwilling to invest in upgrades but because they work just fine is a sign that the industry has reached a good level of maturity. It's a good thing. We should all be working collectively to solve new problems instead of reiterating over the same problems again and again. In the old days of NT4 a 4-year old system would accumulate maintenance costs. Today, Windows 2003 is 13 years old and still pretty serviceable. I'd be more worried about businesses accumulating unsustainable technical debt than accumulating old (but stable) technologies.
- toyg 10y ago
  I absolutely agree! I guess my complaint is that MS is developing all this new stuff with no regards for the installed userbase -- they are all add-ons for Windows 10 and 2016 Server, rather than standalone cross-version apps that could be deployed sooner on existing infrastructure. It's obviously easier for them, but it means "normal people" will not be able to enjoy most of these advances for a very long time.
- poooogles 10y ago
  >Today, Windows 2003 is 13 years old and still pretty serviceable. Unless you're maintaining Server 2003 itself, at which point it comes with 13 years worth of problems.

antoncohen 10y ago

One of the claimed benefits of Docker is that developers build and test the same images that are run in production. It seems like multi-platform support negates that. Multi-platform seems like a good direction to go in, so it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

SteveLas 10y ago
The target of Multi-Platform support is to allow workloads to target different platforms, but not as a single container can run on both. Consider the scenario: Web Front End built with Node.js, targeting Linux ASP.NET Web API, built with NET Core, targeting Nano Server (Windows) Redis Cache, used for the WebAPI, run as a Linux Container. When you spin up these containers, you should be able to say docker-compose up, and docker, Mesos, ... know how to route the containers to the appropriate hosts. Steve

pjmlp 10y ago

If anything I guess Docker has become Go's killer application, even Microsoft is giving contributions to it as a means to help Docker run better on Windows. I look forward if it can help OCaml as well, given their acquisition of Unikernel Systems.

moogly 10y ago

Any word on this trickling down to Windows 10 too? It'd be unfortunate if you had to run VM-based docker on regular development machines IMO. Probably better to just run Windows Server on those machines in that case.

SteveLas 10y ago
See above for Windows Container support (Nano Server) in the current insiders program. However, also note, this is very early, and the experience is a little rough as we stitch together all the moving parts that are coming together for what we believe will be a great local development experience of containerized apps, targeting Linux and Windows workloads.