7 ms·

Whenever Singapore is mentioned, most commentators can only come up with the same three responses: 1. Chewing gum 2. Caning 3. William Gibson Frankly, if I

Whenever Singapore is mentioned, most commentators can only come up with the same three responses: 1. Chewing gum 2. Caning 3. William Gibson Frankly, if I wanted Disneyland with the death sentence, I'd go to California.

Cyph0n 11y ago
I noticed the same type of response when Dubai is mentioned as well.
jamesrcole 11y ago
What responses would you like to see?
- jfoster 11y ago
  Recognition of merits that SG has, perhaps? Maybe there are some interesting differences about their approach. Does everywhere in the world have to have the same style of government?
  - gerbilly 11y ago
    So you are using the _diversity_ argument to argue in favour of Singapore? Really ? Caning and hanging people for minor offenses? I'd gladly lose that, even at the cost of "reduced diversity of styles of government."
    - throwanem 11y ago
      I thought differences of culture were something to be celebrated. Did I misunderstand?
    - greggman 11y ago
      Have you actually lived in Singapore? I don't know where you're from. I'm from the USA. And while I don't like everything SG does, having lived there I see trade offs. In the USA I get freedom of speech (+). In exchange I get mugged on the streets, cars stolen, cars broken into, poverty all over, always having to be on my guard. Then I go live in Singapore where I hate that the internet is filtered, there's no porn, but in exchange I always feel safe. Safe to walk pretty much anywhere at any time day or night. It's a nice feeling. For many people who experience it for a few years it's hard to go back to a place where you always have to look over your shoulder like SF, LA, NYC.
      - gerbilly 11y ago
        The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less so to ensure that my property is safe. If somebody vandalized my car and got some kind of caning or other torture based sentence I'd pray the court for leniency. He damaged a replaceable physical object and the state proposes to injure and traumatize him? I couldn't live in a place that protects my property and buys my physical safety at that cost.
        greggman 11y ago
        You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm
        gerbilly 11y ago
        Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 11y ago
hellofunk 11y ago
You're missing a few big ones. Like, a murder sentence is more lenient in Singapore than a drug trafficking sentence, which is death by hanging. Many murderers go free in Singapore after a few years of prison, while someone caught with a a backpack of pot can be killed legally, and someone with only a couple grams of marijuana can spend 10 years in jail.
- notahacker 11y ago
  As ridiculous as death sentences for drug trafficking are, they're in place and [far more] frequently carried out in all the surrounding South East Asian states too. I'm not sure where you've got the idea Singapore habitually lets murderers free either; judges only got the discretion to impose life imprisonment instead of the death penalty for murder in 2012/
  - hellofunk 11y ago
    This guy set his wife on fire, and she died, and the courts gave him a 20-yr sentence which was considered an "excessive punishment" http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/man-admits-killing-ex-girlfriend-by-setting-her-on-fire http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/man-admits-killing-ex-...
    - notahacker 11y ago
      A cursory search reveals that he was charged of "culpable homicide not amounting to murder" on the grounds that he was "suffering from an abnormality of mind ... which substantially impaired his mental responsibility for the commission of the offence", and his appeal against the 20 year sentence failed. http://www.singaporelaw.sg/sglaw/laws-of-singapore/case-law/free-law/court-of-appeal-judgments/15742-lim-ghim-peow-v-publicprosecutor-2014-sgca-52 http://www.singaporelaw.sg/sglaw/laws-of-singapore/case-law/... So yes, Singapore doesn't impose the same mandatory life or death sentences on the mentally ill, but I'm not sure that helps your argument...
      - hellofunk 11y ago
adventured 11y ago
Except California doesn't execute people any longer. It has been a decade since the last and I wouldn't hold your breath on the next. Singapore has executed people in that time. There are a few more responses I commonly see about Singapore: 4. Political dictatorship 5. Lack of freedom of speech 6. Lack of press freedom, government controlled press 7. Capital punishment, including executions by hanging 8. Socially very regressive
- ulfw 11y ago
  What about Florida? Or does that not count because it's "Disney World"?
nickpsecurity 11y ago
Actually, whenever Singapore is mentioned, you see that from the ignorant plus more thorough responses citing brutal oppression with actual case studies that floats to the top. Just like now. Then you see a bunch of Singapore promoters, sometimes in Singapore, that show up to start talking about minor points, safe streets, and how they have plenty of mindless activities like restaurants and gyms. They will always ignore the worst stuff or act like it doesn't matter. Whereas I know dissenters in Singapore tip-toeing around trying to improve the status quo. They talk of how people nearly drop dead during the mandatory P.E.. They tell me the propaganda they hear all year about Singapore in school and how seeing other country's strengths contradicts it as adults. Many end up zealots, though, for whatever regime changed everything a long time ago. They mention they have no safety against government and they fear disappearing if they threaten their regime. They usually know plenty instances of corruption but media seems to suppress it. All of them have been in menial jobs working unpaid overtime with deceitful salespeople and such like we see in America. Worst, there seems to be little innovation due to follow the leader mentality outside of a few startup havens. All in all, sounds like a terrible place to live for people with bright minds, wanting to purse diverse activities that are meaningful, or trying to improve country's future. I never read Gibson but have experienced that kind of thing in U.S.'s most corrupt & high-police areas. Always trying to lock-up minorities or dissenters ("trouble-makers") for "greater good." Funny thing is, I actually live in and around a murder capital here with more safety and control over my life thanks to my few rights than my Singaporean friends have. Security against thugs is so easy I've taught it in hour seminars. Securing your future against corrupt governments with unlimited power, widespread surveillance, and media complicity is impossible. I wouldn't operate in Singapore unless I cut a protection deal with the government to sort of let me be me without consequences. Not sure of odds of that. So, I stay out of it despite its safety, hardworking people, and cheap labor that corporations love.

Cyph0n 11y ago

I noticed the same type of response when Dubai is mentioned as well.

jamesrcole 11y ago

What responses would you like to see?

jfoster 11y ago
Recognition of merits that SG has, perhaps? Maybe there are some interesting differences about their approach. Does everywhere in the world have to have the same style of government?
- gerbilly 11y ago
  So you are using the _diversity_ argument to argue in favour of Singapore? Really ? Caning and hanging people for minor offenses? I'd gladly lose that, even at the cost of "reduced diversity of styles of government."
  - throwanem 11y ago
    I thought differences of culture were something to be celebrated. Did I misunderstand?
  - greggman 11y ago
    Have you actually lived in Singapore? I don't know where you're from. I'm from the USA. And while I don't like everything SG does, having lived there I see trade offs. In the USA I get freedom of speech (+). In exchange I get mugged on the streets, cars stolen, cars broken into, poverty all over, always having to be on my guard. Then I go live in Singapore where I hate that the internet is filtered, there's no porn, but in exchange I always feel safe. Safe to walk pretty much anywhere at any time day or night. It's a nice feeling. For many people who experience it for a few years it's hard to go back to a place where you always have to look over your shoulder like SF, LA, NYC.
    - gerbilly 11y ago
      The tradeoff isn't worth it for me. I wouldn't feel _morally_ safe knowing the state is using such draconian measures to make me feel physically safe—even less so to ensure that my property is safe. If somebody vandalized my car and got some kind of caning or other torture based sentence I'd pray the court for leniency. He damaged a replaceable physical object and the state proposes to injure and traumatize him? I couldn't live in a place that protects my property and buys my physical safety at that cost.
      - greggman 11y ago
        You say that but have you actually experienced it? That's my point. I never thought the USA was an unsafe place. Until spent 7 years in Japan and 6 months in SG. Before I lived in those places I would have had your opinion. Now that I have I can't live in the USA anymore. It feels like a shit hole 3rd world country. Intellectually knowing the trade offs is different than actually feeling and experiencing them. I'm sure you believe that even after experiencing a life of feeling safe at all times you'd still choose unsafe but freer but I suspect you're discounting the effect it would have on you to actually have the experience. I'm not saying you'd make my choice but I am saying you'd at least see the trade off in a different light. Being free from certain worries is also a form of freedom. You're free to criticize the government. I'm free to let my 8yr kids explore the city without worrying they'll come to any harm
        gerbilly 11y ago
        Nope I haven't experienced it. I don't feel unsafe in the US either, in the places you named, at all hours of the night. I'm not trying to be glib, but if I had to go out and personally experience everything someone recommends, it might take me a long time. I'm glad you feel safe there, I just wouldn't want it for myself on principle.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 11y ago

hellofunk 11y ago

You're missing a few big ones. Like, a murder sentence is more lenient in Singapore than a drug trafficking sentence, which is death by hanging. Many murderers go free in Singapore after a few years of prison, while someone caught with a a backpack of pot can be killed legally, and someone with only a couple grams of marijuana can spend 10 years in jail.

notahacker 11y ago
As ridiculous as death sentences for drug trafficking are, they're in place and [far more] frequently carried out in all the surrounding South East Asian states too. I'm not sure where you've got the idea Singapore habitually lets murderers free either; judges only got the discretion to impose life imprisonment instead of the death penalty for murder in 2012/
- hellofunk 11y ago
  This guy set his wife on fire, and she died, and the courts gave him a 20-yr sentence which was considered an "excessive punishment" http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/man-admits-killing-ex-girlfriend-by-setting-her-on-fire http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/man-admits-killing-ex-...
  - notahacker 11y ago
    A cursory search reveals that he was charged of "culpable homicide not amounting to murder" on the grounds that he was "suffering from an abnormality of mind ... which substantially impaired his mental responsibility for the commission of the offence", and his appeal against the 20 year sentence failed. http://www.singaporelaw.sg/sglaw/laws-of-singapore/case-law/free-law/court-of-appeal-judgments/15742-lim-ghim-peow-v-publicprosecutor-2014-sgca-52 http://www.singaporelaw.sg/sglaw/laws-of-singapore/case-law/... So yes, Singapore doesn't impose the same mandatory life or death sentences on the mentally ill, but I'm not sure that helps your argument...
    - hellofunk 11y ago

adventured 11y ago

Except California doesn't execute people any longer. It has been a decade since the last and I wouldn't hold your breath on the next. Singapore has executed people in that time. There are a few more responses I commonly see about Singapore: 4. Political dictatorship 5. Lack of freedom of speech 6. Lack of press freedom, government controlled press 7. Capital punishment, including executions by hanging 8. Socially very regressive

ulfw 11y ago
What about Florida? Or does that not count because it's "Disney World"?

nickpsecurity 11y ago

Actually, whenever Singapore is mentioned, you see that from the ignorant plus more thorough responses citing brutal oppression with actual case studies that floats to the top. Just like now. Then you see a bunch of Singapore promoters, sometimes in Singapore, that show up to start talking about minor points, safe streets, and how they have plenty of mindless activities like restaurants and gyms. They will always ignore the worst stuff or act like it doesn't matter. Whereas I know dissenters in Singapore tip-toeing around trying to improve the status quo. They talk of how people nearly drop dead during the mandatory P.E.. They tell me the propaganda they hear all year about Singapore in school and how seeing other country's strengths contradicts it as adults. Many end up zealots, though, for whatever regime changed everything a long time ago. They mention they have no safety against government and they fear disappearing if they threaten their regime. They usually know plenty instances of corruption but media seems to suppress it. All of them have been in menial jobs working unpaid overtime with deceitful salespeople and such like we see in America. Worst, there seems to be little innovation due to follow the leader mentality outside of a few startup havens. All in all, sounds like a terrible place to live for people with bright minds, wanting to purse diverse activities that are meaningful, or trying to improve country's future. I never read Gibson but have experienced that kind of thing in U.S.'s most corrupt & high-police areas. Always trying to lock-up minorities or dissenters ("trouble-makers") for "greater good." Funny thing is, I actually live in and around a murder capital here with more safety and control over my life thanks to my few rights than my Singaporean friends have. Security against thugs is so easy I've taught it in hour seminars. Securing your future against corrupt governments with unlimited power, widespread surveillance, and media complicity is impossible. I wouldn't operate in Singapore unless I cut a protection deal with the government to sort of let me be me without consequences. Not sure of odds of that. So, I stay out of it despite its safety, hardworking people, and cheap labor that corporations love.