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> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the

> The next decade is going to be all about the relationship between China and the United States in technology, I want to be there to see it happen. So does the author plan to move to Shenzhen, one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities, in a country that doesn't have free speech? I agree SZ has the best tech scene in China, perhaps due to its proximity to the freer Hong Kong, which has always been the major gateway to the west. I love SZ in many ways. But it takes a certain kind of person to want to live and work under those conditions and I doubt even the author himself plans to move there for the next 10 years.

netheril96 10y ago
> one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities Shenzhen is most polluted?
- culturestate 10y ago
  It's the least-polluted of any first-tier Chinese city, but it's still bad by western standards. When I lived there, I would gauge the day's pollution level by how difficult it was to see the mountains from my balcony through the smog.
yhylord 10y ago
Honestly, the major cities in China are all seriously polluted, but still the degrees vary. Compared to Beijing, Shenzhen's pollution is light, as well to other cities with population at that scale.
jeevand 10y ago
I worked for a big chinese telecom/networking company & went to SZ for about 6 months in 2008. I liked it a lot except for the language barrier but i was able manage with broken mandarin. At that time it was not that polluted when compared to Bangalore(India)
seanmcdirmid 10y ago
I've lived in Beijing for the last 8.5 years working in tech. We all thought the last decade was when everything was going to happen, and most of us were disappointed when it didn't. Granted, when I first moved here, the pollution wasn't as bad, the censorship wasn't as bad, but things changed. Perhaps China might start on an upward opening up trajectory again, but it has been closing up since 2008 (great if you want to be sheltered from foreign competition, bad if you want to practice your world game in an open market).
- makomk 10y ago
  It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general and how little mention it gets in most press coverage of the supposed Chinese miracle. For example, Ian from Dangerous Prototypes wrote a blog post about how difficult it is to import and export goods: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-importexport-permit-and-company-bank/ http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-impor... It's astoundingly bureaucratic and expensive.
  - seanmcdirmid 10y ago
    Right. There is a perception that western media is biased on China, that they make china look worse than it is. But the opposite is actually true: China is much crazier and restrictive than what the western press presents (my guess is that no one would believe the reality).
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general It's not surprising if you think about the difference between free speech and having censorship laws that limit peasants. I learned that when I first traveled around Asia. Your ability to be creative is limited in China. People there can't make art that makes fun of Mao. They can't protest against local police corruption. They can't form groups that appear to be anti-government. For all of this you can be tossed in jail for a few days. Jail is demoralizing and disruptive. If your contribution to society comes through speech that the government does not like, you'll be put down. You'll end up less willing to contribute to society than Americans who hate their bosses. Instead of a bad boss, it's a bad country leader, and that's much much harder to get out from under. I suppose one day everyone in China could just decide to go to jail peacefully; that would be unmanageable for the government.. it could take a lot of noise to get that message out and there is some risk of violence. Police sometimes see themselves as judge and jury, and in China where speaking can be against the law, violence against peaceful protesters is not unheard of even in 2016. Before I came to Asia I did not think much about free speech. If you asked me what made America great before I moved here, I'd have said it's complex. I wasn't even sure America is great. Now I would say it's more simple: true democratic governments are not allowed to throw people in jail for speaking their minds. The first step China can take towards sustainable economic growth, better research and education, is to prevent the government from imprisoning people for speaking their minds. You really need as many people thinking creatively and working hard as possible in order to be competitive. Society is about working together and digging out the best ideas. It's not about silencing people. Until then, expect to see the most intelligent Chinese continue to leave to live elsewhere, pollution to rage further out of control, and free countries' companies to come and go from China. China's judicial system is worse than the free countries' for the same reason.
Hondor 10y ago
No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobody mentions it. Examples: Flag burning, copyright infringement, libel, slander, threats, incitement to violence, child pornography, false advertising, revealing state secrets and trade secrets, violating NDAs, sharing insider information about listed companies. Wow, there's quite a lot of things you're not allowed to say in America! It's a bit like Athenian democracy where everyone could vote. Of course women, children, slaves and foreigners obviously weren't part of "everyone" so there's no need to mention them.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  That's pretty cynical. Its disingenuous to suggest 'free speech' ever meant free to lie and hurt other people. The freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages.
  - Kristine1975 10y ago
    >he freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages. And then the US has these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone Also sedition seems to still be illegal in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States
- bruceb 10y ago
  flag burning isn't illegal. Most of what you listed is not allowed most countries + more restrictions. Compared to most other countries America has fewest restrictions.
  - Hondor 10y ago
    That's good news for freedom. It seems flag burning was illegal before 1990, and very nearly became illegal again a couple of years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act It's true most other countries have even less freedom of speech, but my point was that it's not black and white. Each country is different and none are very free at all. It should be called "fairly free political speech as long as you aren't too specific in calling for overthrow of the government" or a briefer form of that.
PakG1 10y ago
Nitpicking, but Shenzhen isn't one of the world's most polluted cities. Out of China's big four cities, it's the least polluted, and this is a reason why it recently ranked so highly among expats. It is definitely magnitudes less polluted than Beijing and Shanghai.
erikb 10y ago
I like how people always add the "no free speech" point. Have you ever been to China? When you go there you realize it's not more or less free than our countries. It's just in different areas. Also I don't think the author means it that literally. He wants to be in this time, not locally close to the development I think. "there" = "The next decade"

netheril96 10y ago

> one of the world's most densely populated and polluted cities Shenzhen is most polluted?

culturestate 10y ago
It's the least-polluted of any first-tier Chinese city, but it's still bad by western standards. When I lived there, I would gauge the day's pollution level by how difficult it was to see the mountains from my balcony through the smog.

yhylord 10y ago

Honestly, the major cities in China are all seriously polluted, but still the degrees vary. Compared to Beijing, Shenzhen's pollution is light, as well to other cities with population at that scale.

jeevand 10y ago

I worked for a big chinese telecom/networking company & went to SZ for about 6 months in 2008. I liked it a lot except for the language barrier but i was able manage with broken mandarin. At that time it was not that polluted when compared to Bangalore(India)

seanmcdirmid 10y ago

I've lived in Beijing for the last 8.5 years working in tech. We all thought the last decade was when everything was going to happen, and most of us were disappointed when it didn't. Granted, when I first moved here, the pollution wasn't as bad, the censorship wasn't as bad, but things changed. Perhaps China might start on an upward opening up trajectory again, but it has been closing up since 2008 (great if you want to be sheltered from foreign competition, bad if you want to practice your world game in an open market).

makomk 10y ago
It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general and how little mention it gets in most press coverage of the supposed Chinese miracle. For example, Ian from Dangerous Prototypes wrote a blog post about how difficult it is to import and export goods: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-importexport-permit-and-company-bank/ http://dangerousprototypes.com/2016/02/04/how-to-china-impor... It's astoundingly bureaucratic and expensive.
- seanmcdirmid 10y ago
  Right. There is a perception that western media is biased on China, that they make china look worse than it is. But the opposite is actually true: China is much crazier and restrictive than what the western press presents (my guess is that no one would believe the reality).
- studentrob 10y ago
  > It's incredible how closed off they seem to be in general It's not surprising if you think about the difference between free speech and having censorship laws that limit peasants. I learned that when I first traveled around Asia. Your ability to be creative is limited in China. People there can't make art that makes fun of Mao. They can't protest against local police corruption. They can't form groups that appear to be anti-government. For all of this you can be tossed in jail for a few days. Jail is demoralizing and disruptive. If your contribution to society comes through speech that the government does not like, you'll be put down. You'll end up less willing to contribute to society than Americans who hate their bosses. Instead of a bad boss, it's a bad country leader, and that's much much harder to get out from under. I suppose one day everyone in China could just decide to go to jail peacefully; that would be unmanageable for the government.. it could take a lot of noise to get that message out and there is some risk of violence. Police sometimes see themselves as judge and jury, and in China where speaking can be against the law, violence against peaceful protesters is not unheard of even in 2016. Before I came to Asia I did not think much about free speech. If you asked me what made America great before I moved here, I'd have said it's complex. I wasn't even sure America is great. Now I would say it's more simple: true democratic governments are not allowed to throw people in jail for speaking their minds. The first step China can take towards sustainable economic growth, better research and education, is to prevent the government from imprisoning people for speaking their minds. You really need as many people thinking creatively and working hard as possible in order to be competitive. Society is about working together and digging out the best ideas. It's not about silencing people. Until then, expect to see the most intelligent Chinese continue to leave to live elsewhere, pollution to rage further out of control, and free countries' companies to come and go from China. China's judicial system is worse than the free countries' for the same reason.

Hondor 10y ago

No country has free speech. But in choosing a country, you can choose which types of speech you want to be allowed to make freely and which types you want to be protected from other people making. America gets its free speech by defining the word to mean any communication that's permitted to be free. If the law disallows something then by definition it's not speech anymore, or it's an exception that's so obvious nobody mentions it. Examples: Flag burning, copyright infringement, libel, slander, threats, incitement to violence, child pornography, false advertising, revealing state secrets and trade secrets, violating NDAs, sharing insider information about listed companies. Wow, there's quite a lot of things you're not allowed to say in America! It's a bit like Athenian democracy where everyone could vote. Of course women, children, slaves and foreigners obviously weren't part of "everyone" so there's no need to mention them.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
That's pretty cynical. Its disingenuous to suggest 'free speech' ever meant free to lie and hurt other people. The freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  >he freedom is intended to mean 'free to criticize the government', as that was called sedition in past ages. And then the US has these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone Also sedition seems to still be illegal in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition#United_States
bruceb 10y ago
flag burning isn't illegal. Most of what you listed is not allowed most countries + more restrictions. Compared to most other countries America has fewest restrictions.
- Hondor 10y ago
  That's good news for freedom. It seems flag burning was illegal before 1990, and very nearly became illegal again a couple of years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Protection_Act It's true most other countries have even less freedom of speech, but my point was that it's not black and white. Each country is different and none are very free at all. It should be called "fairly free political speech as long as you aren't too specific in calling for overthrow of the government" or a briefer form of that.

PakG1 10y ago

Nitpicking, but Shenzhen isn't one of the world's most polluted cities. Out of China's big four cities, it's the least polluted, and this is a reason why it recently ranked so highly among expats. It is definitely magnitudes less polluted than Beijing and Shanghai.

erikb 10y ago

I like how people always add the "no free speech" point. Have you ever been to China? When you go there you realize it's not more or less free than our countries. It's just in different areas. Also I don't think the author means it that literally. He wants to be in this time, not locally close to the development I think. "there" = "The next decade"