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The main fact missing from the article (and the comments here) is that most of the virtual items are initially generated through gambling with Valve. The major
by CyrusL 10y ago
The main fact missing from the article (and the comments here) is that most of the virtual items are initially generated through gambling with Valve.
The majority of items in CS:GO are initially generated by purchasing a key (for $2.75) to open a case. The game tells the user that the case contains one of a dozen possible items, but not which item. The act of opening the case generates an item that can be worth anywhere from $0.10 to $10,000. The in-game UI for this process even looks like a slot machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpFlpyZ4eBM&t=1m45s
If you want a specific item, (rather than a random one from a case) you can buy it on the Steam Market. But that's a secondary market where the sellers are other gamers. The items themselves were still initially generated from playing Valve's slot machine game.
Valve has a vested interest in maintaining the perception that the items have zero value in real dollars. If the items had real dollar value, then the act of opening cases would make Valve a casino.
That's why when you sell your items on the Steam Market, you can only use the proceeds for other items on Steam. The money is steam dollars, not real dollars. There is no "cash-out" mechanism within Steam.
Of course, this perception is a farce because there is a large market outside of Steam for selling the items for real dollars. Two popular websites are https://opskins.com/ https://opskins.com/ and https://bitskins.com/ https://bitskins.com/ . I don't believe that Valve can maintain their position that the items have a real dollar value of zero when lots and lots of people are trading them for real dollars. It's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company.
I believe that this is at the root of why Valve is so comfortable with all the 3rd-party gambling sites. Valve has established their position that the items are worthless, so normal rules about money shouldn't apply.
- femto113 10y agoIt's sort of like a casino saying the chips are worth zero because the cashier works for a different company. This is exactly how pachinko gambling works in Japan. You win a prize (doll, medal, etc.) in the pachinko parlor, and sell it at the "we buy pachinko prizes" place next door.
- zyxley 10y agoThat's exactly as much of a farce—it's just one that the authorities haven't cracked down on.
- daodedickinson 10y agoIt's one (a subset of) the authorities profit from. So the question is, which authorities are profiting from Valve's casino?
- umanwizard 10y agoI've heard these things are mostly run by the Yakuza? I guess they count as "authorities", in a certain restricted sense.
- chc 10y agoI think the implication is that the Yakuza have the relevant authorities in their pocket.
- webkike 10y agoHonestly - is it? Maybe the reasons I practice fighting games all day is because I desperately need a new toaster.
- chris11 10y agoI'd say that this problem isn't just with Valve. This strategy of gambling for virtual items with in-game currency is used in other games that use a freemium model. Valve gets fewer complaints because you only spend real money on cosmetic items, it's not pay to win. But I think Valve has a better reputation than every other company that makes money off of gambling in video games. I usually assume companies are exploiting their players if they have gambling with in-game currency.
- matwood 10y agoI watched the video above and the items definitely sounded like they were more than cosmetic.
- 67726e 10y agoThe CS:GO skins are purely cosmetic. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what determines a price. There is the rarity aspect, e.g. a typical handgun is only a few cents while the lowest of knives is $50 or more. Beyond that there are "StatTrak" versions of each skin that visibly show confirmed kills on the weapon. Neat, but purely cosmetic. Those skins are usually several multiples of the regular version of the skin. Those factors will effect the price, but two comparable skins based on those factors will have drastically different prices.
- rangibaby 10y agoFads and scarcity! StatTrak versions of skins drop less than those without. Then patterns that people like. I haven't checked CSGO skin sites for awhile but normally multi-colored "fade" skins will all-blue patterns were very popular about a a year ago. How beat up the skin is determined by a number between 0.00 (best) and 1 (worst), so skins with a very low or very high "float" are apparently more desirable.
- 67726e 10y ago> colored "fade" skins will all-blue patterns were very popular about a a year ago Yeah, that appears to be the case. I unboxed a +$300 M9 Bayonet the other week. I think it looks pretty shitty, but hey, who can complain when you can resell it? I kinda get the impression that folks just kinda jump on the bandwagon on certain skins at this point, that they desire to have something valuable rather than something they think looks good.
- NamTaf 10y agoYou can - extremely rarely - get something valuable through the rank-up drop process. I got a skin worth ~$120 (FN M4A1-S Icarus Fell, one of the most valued patterns too) that way. It is incredibly good luck as the rest of what I've got ranges from $3 (once) to about 10c most of the time. That seems to form part of Valve's escape plan if they're called on this. They can claim that gamers can get the items through other mechanisms that do not require monetary input. In reality, it's vanishingly rare that it happens.
- taurath 10y agoSame with the monopoly game at mcdonalds (and now safeway/albertsons!). If they force a purchase to win its gambling, but if you send a letter to some address they have to give you a free game piece.
- tamana 10y agoNot really the same. McD's is adding a lottery ticket on top of a regular purchase that sells high volumes at the same price when the lottery isn't running. valve is selling lottery tickets standalone..
- daodedickinson 10y agoValve is basically doing what Wizards of the Coast has done for decades. I remember there were lawsuits arguing that packs of Pokémon cards should be illegal under gambling laws, especially for children. I can see the point, although I don't think such lawsuits will actually win.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- johanneskanybal 10y agoJust checked what the four most popular game of all games on twitch.com are. At this moment they are, in order of viewers: - Dota 2 (in-game gambling, 3d party sites for cashing out) - Heartstone (game revolves around in-game gambling, no 3d party allowed) - League of Legends (only 3d party sites!) - CS:go (in-game gambling, 3d party sites for cashing out) So from only looking at the very top games 3/4 involves heavy use of in-game gambling. Them being popular competitive games it's natural that e-sports betting is available for all of them. In 2/4 it's trivial to cash out in the other two's you'd have to sell your account.
- jw- 10y agoI would distinguish Hearthstone (a.k.a Wizard Poker) from the rest; Hearthstone is fundamentally a gambling game. However, I would also distinguish the "in-game" gambling in Hearthstone from CSGO because there is no legitimate or practical way to monetize your card collection. Once (or if) you have all the cards, there is little incentive to keep buying packs as you can only play with cards. In CSGO however, there is always the potential to open a new valuable skin that can be sold.
- johanneskanybal 10y agoThere's different twists to it, no doubt, it's just distracting the point I was making though. I just found it highly interesting that 12 year old's gambling was such a recipe for success that 3 out of 4 of the most popular games out there have it as a core feature. I tend to have a Bigger issue when it's in-game than out of game because do you really want the worlds best digital-heroin makers to run casinos where your kids are the guests?
- WorldMaker 10y agoThere were several big Pinball machine bans that nearly killed Pinball machines (the big one being New York City's 30 year ban). I do think that all it takes is a couple of concerned parents or a well respected congress member watching a few Twitch streams too many and watch that bloom into a bit of a moral panic and suddenly you'll see some gambling law based videogame bans.
- jklein11 10y agoHow is this more of a farce than arcades that allow you to trade tickets for prizes? These prizes have a cash value in a secondary market. To me, "gambling" is kind of an arbitrary concept. Would you say that universities are casinos as well? They let students assume risk with an unknown payout. It might be that I'm not defining gambling properly. I'm curious, how would HN readers define gambling?