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The vast majority of python codebases are still in python 2, even though many of the popular framework have been ported to 3, and there's no reason for most of

by Nkdo 10y ago

The vast majority of python codebases are still in python 2, even though many of the popular framework have been ported to 3, and there's no reason for most of them to bother with the amount of work it can be to port to py3 when they're happy with py2. Whether it be devs like Dropbox or open source software like NVDA, they will stay in the world of python 2 for the years to come. The amount of customers they could get by supporting python 3 is definitely not worth the effort unless they get paid explicitly for it. In terms of libraries, python 3 is "mostly" ready (though there are still issues with highly popular ones like wxwidgets. Or amazing tools like Pyjamas, which replicated GWT with Python instead of Java. Or Google AppEngine, which still shows no sign of moving to 3.) but large codebases outside of highly worked on web frameworks haven't moved on and there's not enough gain to justify the effort it takes to port them. The Python 3 debacle caused a lot of devs to also look at other languages for new projects. Old python 2 codebases will stay python 2, but new projects might not necessarily be python at all. The anger with Python 3 is real. See also: https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/ https://caremad.io/2015/04/a-year-of-pypi-downloads/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/45sm94/what_are_the_most_recent_python_3_vs_python_2/czzy5wa https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/45sm94/what_are_the... "Looking at these graphs, we can see that in the past year Python 3.x has grown from roughly 2% of the total downloads from PyPI to roughly 5-6%" I expect things like AppEngine to deprecate Python rather than port to 3, when/if python 2 reaches EOL and not enough people gather to maintain or even evolve that old branch. Python 3 users are a vocal bunch, but the war they're fighting is a lost one.

andrepd 10y ago
>The anger with Python 3 is real. But why?
- daveguy 10y ago
  Because here is a quick list of just over 100 things that have to be considered to port and maintain compatibility between the two: http://python-future.org/compatible_idioms.html http://python-future.org/compatible_idioms.html Python3 is a different language than Python 2.7 and there is no compelling reason to move from 2.7 to 3. Most of what would have been compelling reasons are being handled in PyPy. PyPy is the present and future of Python and that future is 2.7.
  - X-Istence 10y ago
    If you want to use just Python 3, after the initial port there is no issues with having to maintain Python 2/3 compatibility. Working in open source, there is going to be a time when I stop supporting Python 2.x, and already I and others are building libraries that are Python 3.x first, are developed on Python 3.x and Python 2.x is an after thought in testing. PyPy will eventually have to catch up to 3.x, and no, the future is definitely not 2.7.
    - Nkdo 10y ago
      No matter how hard you're wishing it to be true, does not make it so. PyPy will "have" to catch up? in the name of what? PyPy is but one of the many projects that are still thriving in the 2.x ecosystem, there's even a competitor to PyPy that was launched 2 years ago that is also a 2.x exclusive: Pyston. https://blog.pyston.org https://blog.pyston.org Yes, a very new implementation project that happens to focus on 2.7. Python 2 gets all the better runtimes. Long after the end of life of the official CPython 2.7, we will still be running 2.x programs, and doing it on much better runtimes than CPython. We've been hearing the same tirades of Python 3's future over and over again by its partisans ever since its release in 2008. 8 years have passed since then. 8 years will pass and Python 3 will still have nothing but a minority of vocal open source users. Python will be treated as a legacy language the way COBOL and BASIC are treated before py3 starts picking up any steam. That's kinda what some companies are already doing, like Dropbox. Switching to Go here and there, while keeping the maintenance of their very large 2.7 python codebase with absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving that behemoth to 3.x. Why bother? they could write new software features, fix bugs and so on instead of waste time on porting. Why waste so much time on porting when it brings so little benefits? Programming is ultimately about problem solving. Porting to python 3 doesn't make my software better. It's certainly not running any more efficient either, that's PyPy and Pyston territory (Using PyPy can allow you, under some circumstances, to seriously cut down the amount of hardware you need). It doesn't magically add new features, or fix the bugs. Python 3 will go down in history as the best example of what you should never do while growing a language. People like to complain about C++'s complexity, but unlike Python 3, C++ isn't threatened by its own past selves, and that's despite adding features that are arguably far more compelling to look into than the various differences between Py2 and 3. It's also very hard to regain lost trust. The trust that was lost after what was done to Python with Python 3 can never be fully regained. I can write software in C++, Java, C#, Javascript, Lisp, Perl 5 (which is still being worked on) and so on and have an expectation not to have to go through something like Py3. To a lesser extent, even Ruby, although it breaks compatibility from time to time, it never went through anything as major in a one time fashion as Py3 did, which is why the ruby ecosystem hasn't self destructed. With moore's law being utterly dead, the fact that all the interesting improvements to language implementation are happening only to 2.x rather than 3.x really contradicts your idea that the future lies in 3.x.

by Nkdo 10y ago

andrepd 10y ago

>The anger with Python 3 is real. But why?

daveguy 10y ago
Because here is a quick list of just over 100 things that have to be considered to port and maintain compatibility between the two: http://python-future.org/compatible_idioms.html http://python-future.org/compatible_idioms.html Python3 is a different language than Python 2.7 and there is no compelling reason to move from 2.7 to 3. Most of what would have been compelling reasons are being handled in PyPy. PyPy is the present and future of Python and that future is 2.7.
- X-Istence 10y ago
  If you want to use just Python 3, after the initial port there is no issues with having to maintain Python 2/3 compatibility. Working in open source, there is going to be a time when I stop supporting Python 2.x, and already I and others are building libraries that are Python 3.x first, are developed on Python 3.x and Python 2.x is an after thought in testing. PyPy will eventually have to catch up to 3.x, and no, the future is definitely not 2.7.
  - Nkdo 10y ago
    No matter how hard you're wishing it to be true, does not make it so. PyPy will "have" to catch up? in the name of what? PyPy is but one of the many projects that are still thriving in the 2.x ecosystem, there's even a competitor to PyPy that was launched 2 years ago that is also a 2.x exclusive: Pyston. https://blog.pyston.org https://blog.pyston.org Yes, a very new implementation project that happens to focus on 2.7. Python 2 gets all the better runtimes. Long after the end of life of the official CPython 2.7, we will still be running 2.x programs, and doing it on much better runtimes than CPython. We've been hearing the same tirades of Python 3's future over and over again by its partisans ever since its release in 2008. 8 years have passed since then. 8 years will pass and Python 3 will still have nothing but a minority of vocal open source users. Python will be treated as a legacy language the way COBOL and BASIC are treated before py3 starts picking up any steam. That's kinda what some companies are already doing, like Dropbox. Switching to Go here and there, while keeping the maintenance of their very large 2.7 python codebase with absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving that behemoth to 3.x. Why bother? they could write new software features, fix bugs and so on instead of waste time on porting. Why waste so much time on porting when it brings so little benefits? Programming is ultimately about problem solving. Porting to python 3 doesn't make my software better. It's certainly not running any more efficient either, that's PyPy and Pyston territory (Using PyPy can allow you, under some circumstances, to seriously cut down the amount of hardware you need). It doesn't magically add new features, or fix the bugs. Python 3 will go down in history as the best example of what you should never do while growing a language. People like to complain about C++'s complexity, but unlike Python 3, C++ isn't threatened by its own past selves, and that's despite adding features that are arguably far more compelling to look into than the various differences between Py2 and 3. It's also very hard to regain lost trust. The trust that was lost after what was done to Python with Python 3 can never be fully regained. I can write software in C++, Java, C#, Javascript, Lisp, Perl 5 (which is still being worked on) and so on and have an expectation not to have to go through something like Py3. To a lesser extent, even Ruby, although it breaks compatibility from time to time, it never went through anything as major in a one time fashion as Py3 did, which is why the ruby ecosystem hasn't self destructed. With moore's law being utterly dead, the fact that all the interesting improvements to language implementation are happening only to 2.x rather than 3.x really contradicts your idea that the future lies in 3.x.