8 ms·

> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the

by creshal 11y ago

> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.

Loic 11y ago
FYI: the TIN is a unique number associated to each person living in Germany. New born babies are getting a TIN faster than most of the congratulation cards... It is issued by the tax authorities and as a foreigner living in Germany you also get one.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Germany is not alone. In Portugal usually you always need to present you ID card and Tax ID together when some form of identification is required. To the point that the actual ID cards (Ausweis) have the citizen ID, tax ID and social security ID all together.
- sasvari 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...
- blah5432 11y ago
  Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.
  - creshal 11y ago
    > Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)
    - jarman 11y ago
      Government will identify citizens anyway. It's not choice between ID and no ID, but between simple ID and ad-hoc scheme (Name/Surname/Birthdate/Residence composite, or issuing separate id for each institution). While IDs do have negative consequences, I see zero downside in replacing VATIN, passport number (linked list of "previous document" in worst case, down to birth certificate), army id number, employment record book number and "$surname $name $patronymic, born $birth_date at $birth_place, registered $registration_place" official title with single citizen ID.
      - throwanem 11y ago
        Centralization and slack are inversely proportional. If everybody is reliably and unambiguously identified from birth by a single government-issued and -maintained key, and that government turns against its citizens (or is overthrown, compromised, et cetera), you're basically hosed.
        jarman 11y ago
        That data is already centralized and interlinked. There is no 'slack' (ambiguity and leeway) as far as government is concerned. I am not arguing for using government-issued IDs for non-government services (as in original post), and consider enforcement of such use a direct attack on citizen freedom, but only for having single ID for use in state-person relations.
        creshal 11y ago
        > That data is already centralized and interlinked. Not in all countries. Germany used to have explicit laws against combining state and federal record bases, they were only recently eroded to "fight terrorism".
    - blah5432 11y ago
      You need to assume nothing. Your government is spying on everybody without an ID. Your explanation just doesn't qualify, sorry.
  - jjgreen 11y ago
    So why you create temporary accounts to comment?
    - blah5432 11y ago
      Because this lovely customer I'm working in MITMs the HTTPS. You know, it's so cool to read gmail on the phone. BTW, shame on Chrome for allowing it without a warning :-/ Firefox totally refused to connect.
danielbln 11y ago
> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. I like to believe we are a bit further away from genocide than one election gone awry. 71 years passed, you know.
- creshal 11y ago
  And? People aren't less manipulatable than their grandparents were. Just look at the recent election successes of the AfD.
  - vixen99 11y ago
    This is a cheap smear. If you want to criticise the AfD - fine - but be specific and give your reasons. I gather they object as I do, to Merkel's arrogant 2015 invitation to migrants which impinges on every person in the EU and particularly in the UK which is a honeypot for EU citizens (which migrants will be in a few years) earning less than the minimum wage.
    - creshal 11y ago
      They are a protest party. Being right-wing is incidental here – they appeared out of nowhere, gained support fast due to unforeseen political circumstances, but they don't exactly have a mature political agenda. They're most likely no new NSDAP, but who says we'll be that lucky every time protest parties sprout up?
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        The CDU moved more into a more left direction under Merkel, so there are politicians who will try to capture the more right-wing voters who don't feel themself represented by the CDU anymore. Voila - AfD is born. As a German I don't like the AfD but really don't worry about it.
- rfrey 11y ago
  Societies pass from peaceable to terrifying all the time, and it generally happens pretty quickly. Nobody ever seems to see it coming, although it's always obvious in hindsight to armchair analysts. It hasn't happened in one of the big powers in awhile, but 71 years isn't that long. It wouldn't be paradise the day before an election and hell the day after, but you never know what event will be pivotal. Until armchair time.
hartpuff 11y ago
> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?
- creshal 11y ago
  > Because first they'll come for the contractless? No, but census data were extremely useful in organizing the holocaust. > Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis? Because in these cases that's how the political discussion in Germany in the 1980s/2000s went when the above-mentioned measures were discussed. It's simply the benchmark our governments are judged by. The Nazis are not some boogeymen that you use whenever you need a politically correct movie villain, they were the democratically elected government of a first world nation, and should be treated as such. More generally: Governments should not operate as efficiently as possible. They should be easy to keep in check by the population.
  - hartpuff 11y ago
    This is not about collecting census data, is it? So, sticking to what it is about, if you think your invoking of the Nazis and the Holocaust was even remotely appropriate in this thread, explain how banning anonymous SIM cards aids a future genocide.
    - creshal 11y ago
      Banning anonymity in any form infringes on your right of expression, as it results in the panopticon effect. The BVerfG put it far more eloquently than I could: https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011.de/fileadmin/material/pdf/gesetze/volkszaehlungsurteil_1983.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011...
      - hartpuff 11y ago
        Great. Now explain how banning anonymous SIM cards causes genocide.
wolfgke 11y ago
> Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. Rather because of the experience with the Stasi in the former GDR.
- creshal 11y ago
  The Gestapo used the same – and worse – methods as the Stasi did, and in the 1980s, when the general census was planned, the Stasi's exact methods weren't well-studied in the west. The 1983 census decision mainly evolved around theoretical threats (panopticon effect) and the provisions of the German constitution (basic law), which was made in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and grounded on the concept of inalienable human dignity.
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    For the census (in the 80th) you are right, but today the political activists rather use comparisons with the Stasi. For example when Wolfgang Schäuble was Interior Minister activists against the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (Access Impediment Act) often used the slogan "Stasi 2.0" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0). The same slogan is used by activists against Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention).
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      "SSchäuble" was also used when referring to him in general.
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        Correct, but SSchäuble was a slogan of rather low level (in my opinion), just as "Rollstuhl-Nazi" (wheelchair nazi).

by creshal 11y ago

Loic 11y ago

FYI: the TIN is a unique number associated to each person living in Germany. New born babies are getting a TIN faster than most of the congratulation cards... It is issued by the tax authorities and as a foreigner living in Germany you also get one.

pjmlp 11y ago
Germany is not alone. In Portugal usually you always need to present you ID card and Tax ID together when some form of identification is required. To the point that the actual ID cards (Ausweis) have the citizen ID, tax ID and social security ID all together.
sasvari 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...
blah5432 11y ago
Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.
- creshal 11y ago
  > Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)
  - jarman 11y ago
    Government will identify citizens anyway. It's not choice between ID and no ID, but between simple ID and ad-hoc scheme (Name/Surname/Birthdate/Residence composite, or issuing separate id for each institution). While IDs do have negative consequences, I see zero downside in replacing VATIN, passport number (linked list of "previous document" in worst case, down to birth certificate), army id number, employment record book number and "$surname $name $patronymic, born $birth_date at $birth_place, registered $registration_place" official title with single citizen ID.
    - throwanem 11y ago
      Centralization and slack are inversely proportional. If everybody is reliably and unambiguously identified from birth by a single government-issued and -maintained key, and that government turns against its citizens (or is overthrown, compromised, et cetera), you're basically hosed.
      - jarman 11y ago
        That data is already centralized and interlinked. There is no 'slack' (ambiguity and leeway) as far as government is concerned. I am not arguing for using government-issued IDs for non-government services (as in original post), and consider enforcement of such use a direct attack on citizen freedom, but only for having single ID for use in state-person relations.
        creshal 11y ago
        > That data is already centralized and interlinked. Not in all countries. Germany used to have explicit laws against combining state and federal record bases, they were only recently eroded to "fight terrorism".
  - blah5432 11y ago
    You need to assume nothing. Your government is spying on everybody without an ID. Your explanation just doesn't qualify, sorry.
- jjgreen 11y ago
  So why you create temporary accounts to comment?
  - blah5432 11y ago
    Because this lovely customer I'm working in MITMs the HTTPS. You know, it's so cool to read gmail on the phone. BTW, shame on Chrome for allowing it without a warning :-/ Firefox totally refused to connect.

danielbln 11y ago

> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. I like to believe we are a bit further away from genocide than one election gone awry. 71 years passed, you know.

creshal 11y ago
And? People aren't less manipulatable than their grandparents were. Just look at the recent election successes of the AfD.
- vixen99 11y ago
  This is a cheap smear. If you want to criticise the AfD - fine - but be specific and give your reasons. I gather they object as I do, to Merkel's arrogant 2015 invitation to migrants which impinges on every person in the EU and particularly in the UK which is a honeypot for EU citizens (which migrants will be in a few years) earning less than the minimum wage.
  - creshal 11y ago
    They are a protest party. Being right-wing is incidental here – they appeared out of nowhere, gained support fast due to unforeseen political circumstances, but they don't exactly have a mature political agenda. They're most likely no new NSDAP, but who says we'll be that lucky every time protest parties sprout up?
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      The CDU moved more into a more left direction under Merkel, so there are politicians who will try to capture the more right-wing voters who don't feel themself represented by the CDU anymore. Voila - AfD is born. As a German I don't like the AfD but really don't worry about it.
rfrey 11y ago
Societies pass from peaceable to terrifying all the time, and it generally happens pretty quickly. Nobody ever seems to see it coming, although it's always obvious in hindsight to armchair analysts. It hasn't happened in one of the big powers in awhile, but 71 years isn't that long. It wouldn't be paradise the day before an election and hell the day after, but you never know what event will be pivotal. Until armchair time.

hartpuff 11y ago

> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?

creshal 11y ago
> Because first they'll come for the contractless? No, but census data were extremely useful in organizing the holocaust. > Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis? Because in these cases that's how the political discussion in Germany in the 1980s/2000s went when the above-mentioned measures were discussed. It's simply the benchmark our governments are judged by. The Nazis are not some boogeymen that you use whenever you need a politically correct movie villain, they were the democratically elected government of a first world nation, and should be treated as such. More generally: Governments should not operate as efficiently as possible. They should be easy to keep in check by the population.
- hartpuff 11y ago
  This is not about collecting census data, is it? So, sticking to what it is about, if you think your invoking of the Nazis and the Holocaust was even remotely appropriate in this thread, explain how banning anonymous SIM cards aids a future genocide.
  - creshal 11y ago
    Banning anonymity in any form infringes on your right of expression, as it results in the panopticon effect. The BVerfG put it far more eloquently than I could: https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011.de/fileadmin/material/pdf/gesetze/volkszaehlungsurteil_1983.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011...
    - hartpuff 11y ago
      Great. Now explain how banning anonymous SIM cards causes genocide.

wolfgke 11y ago

> Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. Rather because of the experience with the Stasi in the former GDR.

creshal 11y ago
The Gestapo used the same – and worse – methods as the Stasi did, and in the 1980s, when the general census was planned, the Stasi's exact methods weren't well-studied in the west. The 1983 census decision mainly evolved around theoretical threats (panopticon effect) and the provisions of the German constitution (basic law), which was made in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and grounded on the concept of inalienable human dignity.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  For the census (in the 80th) you are right, but today the political activists rather use comparisons with the Stasi. For example when Wolfgang Schäuble was Interior Minister activists against the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (Access Impediment Act) often used the slogan "Stasi 2.0" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0). The same slogan is used by activists against Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention).
  - Kristine1975 11y ago
    "SSchäuble" was also used when referring to him in general.
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      Correct, but SSchäuble was a slogan of rather low level (in my opinion), just as "Rollstuhl-Nazi" (wheelchair nazi).