7 ms·

I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. For at least the last three or four years in Australia there is a requirem

I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. For at least the last three or four years in Australia there is a requirement to present Photo ID before buying a SIM card. I was quite surprised by this when I tried to buy a SIM at Sydney airport a few years ago. I have no idea what the government is doing with the data nor how it is protected. At the time, I just wanted a local SIM and to be on my way.

creshal 11y ago
> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.
- Loic 11y ago
  FYI: the TIN is a unique number associated to each person living in Germany. New born babies are getting a TIN faster than most of the congratulation cards... It is issued by the tax authorities and as a foreigner living in Germany you also get one.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Germany is not alone. In Portugal usually you always need to present you ID card and Tax ID together when some form of identification is required. To the point that the actual ID cards (Ausweis) have the citizen ID, tax ID and social security ID all together.
  - sasvari 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...
  - blah5432 11y ago
    Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.
    - creshal 11y ago
      > Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)
      - jarman 11y ago
        Government will identify citizens anyway. It's not choice between ID and no ID, but between simple ID and ad-hoc scheme (Name/Surname/Birthdate/Residence composite, or issuing separate id for each institution). While IDs do have negative consequences, I see zero downside in replacing VATIN, passport number (linked list of "previous document" in worst case, down to birth certificate), army id number, employment record book number and "$surname $name $patronymic, born $birth_date at $birth_place, registered $registration_place" official title with single citizen ID.
        throwanem 11y ago
        Centralization and slack are inversely proportional. If everybody is reliably and unambiguously identified from birth by a single government-issued and -maintained key, and that government turns against its citizens (or is overthrown, compromised, et cetera), you're basically hosed.
        jarman 11y ago
        That data is already centralized and interlinked. There is no 'slack' (ambiguity and leeway) as far as government is concerned. I am not arguing for using government-issued IDs for non-government services (as in original post), and consider enforcement of such use a direct attack on citizen freedom, but only for having single ID for use in state-person relations.
- danielbln 11y ago
  > One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. I like to believe we are a bit further away from genocide than one election gone awry. 71 years passed, you know.
  - creshal 11y ago
    And? People aren't less manipulatable than their grandparents were. Just look at the recent election successes of the AfD.
    - vixen99 11y ago
      This is a cheap smear. If you want to criticise the AfD - fine - but be specific and give your reasons. I gather they object as I do, to Merkel's arrogant 2015 invitation to migrants which impinges on every person in the EU and particularly in the UK which is a honeypot for EU citizens (which migrants will be in a few years) earning less than the minimum wage.
      - creshal 11y ago
        They are a protest party. Being right-wing is incidental here – they appeared out of nowhere, gained support fast due to unforeseen political circumstances, but they don't exactly have a mature political agenda. They're most likely no new NSDAP, but who says we'll be that lucky every time protest parties sprout up?
        wolfgke 11y ago
        The CDU moved more into a more left direction under Merkel, so there are politicians who will try to capture the more right-wing voters who don't feel themself represented by the CDU anymore. Voila - AfD is born. As a German I don't like the AfD but really don't worry about it.
  - rfrey 11y ago
    Societies pass from peaceable to terrifying all the time, and it generally happens pretty quickly. Nobody ever seems to see it coming, although it's always obvious in hindsight to armchair analysts. It hasn't happened in one of the big powers in awhile, but 71 years isn't that long. It wouldn't be paradise the day before an election and hell the day after, but you never know what event will be pivotal. Until armchair time.
- hartpuff 11y ago
  > One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?
  - creshal 11y ago
    > Because first they'll come for the contractless? No, but census data were extremely useful in organizing the holocaust. > Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis? Because in these cases that's how the political discussion in Germany in the 1980s/2000s went when the above-mentioned measures were discussed. It's simply the benchmark our governments are judged by. The Nazis are not some boogeymen that you use whenever you need a politically correct movie villain, they were the democratically elected government of a first world nation, and should be treated as such. More generally: Governments should not operate as efficiently as possible. They should be easy to keep in check by the population.
    - hartpuff 11y ago
      This is not about collecting census data, is it? So, sticking to what it is about, if you think your invoking of the Nazis and the Holocaust was even remotely appropriate in this thread, explain how banning anonymous SIM cards aids a future genocide.
      - creshal 11y ago
        Banning anonymity in any form infringes on your right of expression, as it results in the panopticon effect. The BVerfG put it far more eloquently than I could: https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011.de/fileadmin/material/pdf/gesetze/volkszaehlungsurteil_1983.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011...
        hartpuff 11y ago
        Great. Now explain how banning anonymous SIM cards causes genocide.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  > Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. Rather because of the experience with the Stasi in the former GDR.
  - creshal 11y ago
    The Gestapo used the same – and worse – methods as the Stasi did, and in the 1980s, when the general census was planned, the Stasi's exact methods weren't well-studied in the west. The 1983 census decision mainly evolved around theoretical threats (panopticon effect) and the provisions of the German constitution (basic law), which was made in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and grounded on the concept of inalienable human dignity.
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      For the census (in the 80th) you are right, but today the political activists rather use comparisons with the Stasi. For example when Wolfgang Schäuble was Interior Minister activists against the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (Access Impediment Act) often used the slogan "Stasi 2.0" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0). The same slogan is used by activists against Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention).
      - Kristine1975 11y ago
        "SSchäuble" was also used when referring to him in general.
        wolfgke 11y ago
        Correct, but SSchäuble was a slogan of rather low level (in my opinion), just as "Rollstuhl-Nazi" (wheelchair nazi).
cm2187 11y ago
I think it is sort of pointless. You have free wifis pretty much everywhere now. You don't really need a SIM card to communicate - even by voice - with other people. What will happen then? Starbuck will need to ask for your ID when you connect to their wifi? Russia is doing pretty much that with internet cafes. These control freaks need to get over the idea that they will achieve electronically a level of government control which would be absolutely unacceptable in the physical world (the "I want you to report to the police who you talked to during the day and you also need to check their ID to ensure that your reports to the police are accurate", even the Soviet Union - or the Stasi - didn't go that far).
- adrianN 11y ago
  Free Wifis are a lot more scarce in Germany though.
  - cm2187 11y ago
    I don't know about Germany, but a friend of mine visited London without roaming, and I was surprised that he achieved pretty much constant connectivity. There is almost not a single restaurant, coffee shop, airport or train without free wifi.
    - CrystalGamma 11y ago
      That's completely different in Germany, because here everyone with an internet access is legally liable for any misconduct done using their connection. There are movements to change this, but Germany still is the country with the lowest free-wifi coverage worldwide (I assume).
      - cm2187 11y ago
        The equivalent of that in the physical world would be the restaurant being responsible for what its guest are discussing about at its table. How do we know that these guys in suit at that table aren't planning a fraud?
      - 11y ago
madiathomas 11y ago
In South Africa, we had this kind of checks since 2003. Not only are you supposed to present an ID book, you are also required to bring a verifiable proof of residence. While visiting Mozambique a month back, I used a passport to buy a SIM card. Seems like Germany is just catching up with the rest of the world.
geomark 11y ago
They do it here in Thailand. Last year they set a cutoff date - if you had not registered your SIM + gov issued id by a certain date your service was cutoff and you couldn't get new service until you did. The reason was "terrorism", because southern insurgents kept using cell phones as remotes to set off bombs. Now the government uses the information to round up pesky people who use chat apps on their phones to organize protests against the military junta. That's the pattern, right? Start with /terrorism/think of the children/war on drugs/ and transition to general oppression of the populace.

creshal 11y ago

> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.

Loic 11y ago
FYI: the TIN is a unique number associated to each person living in Germany. New born babies are getting a TIN faster than most of the congratulation cards... It is issued by the tax authorities and as a foreigner living in Germany you also get one.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Germany is not alone. In Portugal usually you always need to present you ID card and Tax ID together when some form of identification is required. To the point that the actual ID cards (Ausweis) have the citizen ID, tax ID and social security ID all together.
- sasvari 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_number_(Swed...
- blah5432 11y ago
  Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.
  - creshal 11y ago
    > Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)
    - jarman 11y ago
      Government will identify citizens anyway. It's not choice between ID and no ID, but between simple ID and ad-hoc scheme (Name/Surname/Birthdate/Residence composite, or issuing separate id for each institution). While IDs do have negative consequences, I see zero downside in replacing VATIN, passport number (linked list of "previous document" in worst case, down to birth certificate), army id number, employment record book number and "$surname $name $patronymic, born $birth_date at $birth_place, registered $registration_place" official title with single citizen ID.
      - throwanem 11y ago
        Centralization and slack are inversely proportional. If everybody is reliably and unambiguously identified from birth by a single government-issued and -maintained key, and that government turns against its citizens (or is overthrown, compromised, et cetera), you're basically hosed.
        jarman 11y ago
        That data is already centralized and interlinked. There is no 'slack' (ambiguity and leeway) as far as government is concerned. I am not arguing for using government-issued IDs for non-government services (as in original post), and consider enforcement of such use a direct attack on citizen freedom, but only for having single ID for use in state-person relations.
danielbln 11y ago
> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. I like to believe we are a bit further away from genocide than one election gone awry. 71 years passed, you know.
- creshal 11y ago
  And? People aren't less manipulatable than their grandparents were. Just look at the recent election successes of the AfD.
  - vixen99 11y ago
    This is a cheap smear. If you want to criticise the AfD - fine - but be specific and give your reasons. I gather they object as I do, to Merkel's arrogant 2015 invitation to migrants which impinges on every person in the EU and particularly in the UK which is a honeypot for EU citizens (which migrants will be in a few years) earning less than the minimum wage.
    - creshal 11y ago
      They are a protest party. Being right-wing is incidental here – they appeared out of nowhere, gained support fast due to unforeseen political circumstances, but they don't exactly have a mature political agenda. They're most likely no new NSDAP, but who says we'll be that lucky every time protest parties sprout up?
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        The CDU moved more into a more left direction under Merkel, so there are politicians who will try to capture the more right-wing voters who don't feel themself represented by the CDU anymore. Voila - AfD is born. As a German I don't like the AfD but really don't worry about it.
- rfrey 11y ago
  Societies pass from peaceable to terrifying all the time, and it generally happens pretty quickly. Nobody ever seems to see it coming, although it's always obvious in hindsight to armchair analysts. It hasn't happened in one of the big powers in awhile, but 71 years isn't that long. It wouldn't be paradise the day before an election and hell the day after, but you never know what event will be pivotal. Until armchair time.
hartpuff 11y ago
> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?
- creshal 11y ago
  > Because first they'll come for the contractless? No, but census data were extremely useful in organizing the holocaust. > Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis? Because in these cases that's how the political discussion in Germany in the 1980s/2000s went when the above-mentioned measures were discussed. It's simply the benchmark our governments are judged by. The Nazis are not some boogeymen that you use whenever you need a politically correct movie villain, they were the democratically elected government of a first world nation, and should be treated as such. More generally: Governments should not operate as efficiently as possible. They should be easy to keep in check by the population.
  - hartpuff 11y ago
    This is not about collecting census data, is it? So, sticking to what it is about, if you think your invoking of the Nazis and the Holocaust was even remotely appropriate in this thread, explain how banning anonymous SIM cards aids a future genocide.
    - creshal 11y ago
      Banning anonymity in any form infringes on your right of expression, as it results in the panopticon effect. The BVerfG put it far more eloquently than I could: https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011.de/fileadmin/material/pdf/gesetze/volkszaehlungsurteil_1983.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20101116085553/http://zensus2011...
      - hartpuff 11y ago
        Great. Now explain how banning anonymous SIM cards causes genocide.
wolfgke 11y ago
> Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. Rather because of the experience with the Stasi in the former GDR.
- creshal 11y ago
  The Gestapo used the same – and worse – methods as the Stasi did, and in the 1980s, when the general census was planned, the Stasi's exact methods weren't well-studied in the west. The 1983 census decision mainly evolved around theoretical threats (panopticon effect) and the provisions of the German constitution (basic law), which was made in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and grounded on the concept of inalienable human dignity.
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    For the census (in the 80th) you are right, but today the political activists rather use comparisons with the Stasi. For example when Wolfgang Schäuble was Interior Minister activists against the Zugangserschwerungsgesetz (Access Impediment Act) often used the slogan "Stasi 2.0" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi_2.0). The same slogan is used by activists against Vorratsdatenspeicherung (data retention).
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      "SSchäuble" was also used when referring to him in general.
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        Correct, but SSchäuble was a slogan of rather low level (in my opinion), just as "Rollstuhl-Nazi" (wheelchair nazi).

cm2187 11y ago

I think it is sort of pointless. You have free wifis pretty much everywhere now. You don't really need a SIM card to communicate - even by voice - with other people. What will happen then? Starbuck will need to ask for your ID when you connect to their wifi? Russia is doing pretty much that with internet cafes. These control freaks need to get over the idea that they will achieve electronically a level of government control which would be absolutely unacceptable in the physical world (the "I want you to report to the police who you talked to during the day and you also need to check their ID to ensure that your reports to the police are accurate", even the Soviet Union - or the Stasi - didn't go that far).

adrianN 11y ago
Free Wifis are a lot more scarce in Germany though.
- cm2187 11y ago
  I don't know about Germany, but a friend of mine visited London without roaming, and I was surprised that he achieved pretty much constant connectivity. There is almost not a single restaurant, coffee shop, airport or train without free wifi.
  - CrystalGamma 11y ago
    That's completely different in Germany, because here everyone with an internet access is legally liable for any misconduct done using their connection. There are movements to change this, but Germany still is the country with the lowest free-wifi coverage worldwide (I assume).
    - cm2187 11y ago
      The equivalent of that in the physical world would be the restaurant being responsible for what its guest are discussing about at its table. How do we know that these guys in suit at that table aren't planning a fraud?
    - 11y ago

madiathomas 11y ago

In South Africa, we had this kind of checks since 2003. Not only are you supposed to present an ID book, you are also required to bring a verifiable proof of residence. While visiting Mozambique a month back, I used a passport to buy a SIM card. Seems like Germany is just catching up with the rest of the world.

geomark 11y ago

They do it here in Thailand. Last year they set a cutoff date - if you had not registered your SIM + gov issued id by a certain date your service was cutoff and you couldn't get new service until you did. The reason was "terrorism", because southern insurgents kept using cell phones as remotes to set off bombs. Now the government uses the information to round up pesky people who use chat apps on their phones to organize protests against the military junta. That's the pattern, right? Start with /terrorism/think of the children/war on drugs/ and transition to general oppression of the populace.