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Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]
- Bouncingsoul1 11y agoCouldn't find link in English. German government is planning to make it impossible to buy SIM cars anonymously.
- opless 11y agoLink 404s
- unlinker 11y agoBeen like that in Spain since the infamous 11-M. You know, religion of peace and all of that
- Cyph0n 11y agoYeah, this is HN, not /r/worldnews mate. Keep the discussion respectful please.
- JazCE 11y agoThis is terrible news. I wanted to get a sim card for Japan, but you can only get a pocket wifi device, which isn't so bad, but not as straightforward as swapping your sim out for a local sim as i do when in the states or malaysia.
- hamishforbes 11y agoThat's not true. You just can't get a sim card with voice/SMS capability. Foreigners can get data only SIMs no problem, most airports will sell them (often out of a vending machine) e.g. https://t.iijmio.jp/en/ https://t.iijmio.jp/en/
- jessriedel 11y agoGiven VOIP, what is the rationale of making this distinction?
- tangent128 11y agoSo voice SIMs can't be used as throwaway cell numbers, I'd guess.
- shad0wca7 11y agoIn related news, Germany has announced requirements that all purchases of any lithium-ion related technologies be accompanied by an identifying arm-band to be worn at all times.
- gedsic 11y agoAccording to the text, they want to achieve this by forcing vendors/providers to check the ID of the buyer, even for prepaid SIMs.
- DominikPeters 11y agoMain points of the article: For purposes of terrorism prevention, the current German government wants to require sellers of SIM cards to check photo ID and ask for current address. If this happens, it will be (theoretically) impossible to own a German phone number that isn't connected to a name. The address data is supposed to be put into a searchable database allowing security officials to search for names even if the exact spelling isn't known (which appears to be a problem with current systems). For privacy purposes, they plan to put a limit on the number of records displayed in response to a search query.
- phillc73 11y agoI think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. For at least the last three or four years in Australia there is a requirement to present Photo ID before buying a SIM card. I was quite surprised by this when I tried to buy a SIM at Sydney airport a few years ago. I have no idea what the government is doing with the data nor how it is protected. At the time, I just wanted a local SIM and to be on my way.
- creshal 11y ago> I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world. Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance. One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.
- Ambroos 11y agoIs this so bad? I remember back in 2012 when I visited Berlin I had to register my SIM with my Belgian ID and address too. It only took a few minutes, it's not that much of a hassle. At the phone shop in Belgium where I work we were required to ask for a name and address too (but didn't check ID's for prepaid cards). I doubt this will solve much terrorism-wise though. You can't expect phone shops to verify the validity of every foreign ID and address, just supplying fake data wouldn't be hard (and probably go unnoticed until it was 'too late').
- dogma1138 11y agoIf you use a non-EU passport they'll take a copy of it and ask you to register where you are staying.
- hartpuff 11y ago> Is this so bad? A better question is will this stop terrorism? If the answer is no, or unlikely, then it's just yet another inconvenience (and invasion of privacy) for lots of innocent people.
- azazqadir 11y agoI think this is a good move. Whether it can solve terrorism issue or not that does not mean the government can't even try.
- tomp 11y agoHow would this solve terrorism?
- azazqadir 11y agoI never said it will solve terrorism. I said it's a good thing that government is trying at least.
- icebraining 11y agoShouldn't the government be trying things that are expected to work? Otherwise this is just another example of the Politician's Fallacy.
- 05 11y agoThankfully because there's no roaming in the EU, there's absolutely no other way to get an unregistered SIM card to work in Germany..
- cm2187 11y agoIf even if there was roaming, there isn't any internet to order foreign SIM cards online.
- cheshire_cat 11y agoThere are already methods in place to get an anonymous SIM card even if this law gets passed. There is a SIM exchange service run by privacy activists. [0] There are also people that register hundreds of cards on their own name and resell them. This is just another invasion of privacy and not even worth it imho. [0] http://www.daten-speicherung.de/index.php/kartentausch/ http://www.daten-speicherung.de/index.php/kartentausch/
- lukasm 11y agoGet a car in Berlin, drive for 1h to the first gas station in Poland. This is yet another stupid law. No problem for bad guys, just hurting legitimate businesses. And obviously no identity theft will happen, since no one ever hacked any provider and you cannot ask a homeless guy to buy you a dozen.
- skoczymroczny 11y ago> drive for 1h to the first gas station in Poland. Not for long http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/polska-i-swiat/a/koniec-anonimowych-telefonow-na-karte,9784741/ http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/polska-i-swiat/a/koniec-anoni...
- ghshephard 11y agoPresumably all european nations will harmonize in the next year or two and it will be a requirement to provide government identification prior to purchasing a data SIM.
- jkot 11y agoAnon SIMs are already banned in many EU countries. It does not really work, some homeless people have thousands SIMs registered on their name. Also opposition in Germany says this might be discriminatory to refugees, since some of them have no documents.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y agoIn which ones? I have manu prepaid sims from all over Europe and the only one with a name on is an old italian one when they required it. Which i think they no longer do.
- jkot 11y agoI had to show ID in Czech Republic, Hungaria, Ireland and Greece.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago> Czech Republic I have a czech prepaid sim, never had to show an ID for it. > Hungaria True, ID needed there. > Ireland I had an Irish Three Sim. No ID was needed. > Greece Looks like an ID is needed there from Googling.
- ithkuil 11y agoI confirm: in Ireland you can buy a sim (I have a tesco mobile SIM) with no ID
- pmontra 11y agoItaly still requires to link a SIM to a person. I don't remember if I had to show my id or my fiscal code last time I got a new SIM. No more than a 30 seconds procedure. They note it down and that's it. It's been like that for so long that I forgot when and why they introduced this legislation.
- trappedfly 11y agoIt is still required to have your name tied to SIMs in Italy. You are asked to show an ID (or driver's license) and your fiscal code[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card
- junto 11y agoI didn't realise it wasn't possible. I've always been asked for ID.
- aluhut 11y agoYou could buy those "Sets" at ALDI for example. You would still have to register it somehow. I did it once on a public phone stating fake information. Phone stopped working after few weeks.
- madiathomas 11y agoIn South Africa, we have had this kind of legislation since 2003. It is called RICA(Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-Related Information Act). Shops aren't allowed to sell a SIM card without proof of identification. Foreigners can use their passports to register a SIM card. It takes few minutes. This was done to fight identity theft. We don't have terrorism problem here because people who used to be regarded as terrorists(freedom fighters) by former unjust, apartheid government are now in power. If your SIM card is registered under your name, no-one else will be allowed to do a SIM swap on it. Only you can do such after providing proof of identification. I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime. Our government doesn't have history of invading privacy of their citizens, which makes it easier to trust them.
- _djo_ 11y ago>I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime. No, it doesn't. SIM cards registered with false identities are available for about R50 apiece in central Johannesburg, without any need for the buyer to provide identification. The police are aware of this. >Our government doesn't have history of invading privacy of their citizens, which makes it easier to trust them. That's naive, there have been a number of stories showing just how badly the government abuses the privacy of ordinary citizens. Amongst these was a story by the Mail and Guardian showing that the government had performed over 6 million electronic intercepts in the first years that RICA was active, along with testimony from current and former intelligence officers stating that they often hid unauthorised intercepts amongst the multitude of authorised ones. There is also clear evidence that a number of journalists, including two at the Mail and Guardian, have had their phone calls, text message and internet usage intercepted by SA intelligence agencies. As for authorisation, all the state requires to perform a broad intercept is the say-so of a retired judge appointed and paid by the Minister of Justice. That means that unlike a regular court judge, whose remuneration and service depends on an independent entity in the Judicial Services Commission, the RICA judge is subservient to the Executive. The access for those intercepts is easy too, given that RICA requires that the major phone companies, internet exchanges and ISPs create real-time data feeds into the various Interception Centres managed by the Office of Interception Centres. This allows them to snoop on the internet and phone traffic of all South Africans in real-time without the need to even inform the companies providing the data. RICA's main purpose was to make it easier for the state to legally surveil as many people as it wanted to without too much in the way of opposition. It's not a good law.
- donohoe 11y agoIf I want to text or talk to you over a cell network I need to show ID. If I want to text, call (VOIP), email, chat, message you over wifi I don't. Sounds very secure.
- TACIXAT 11y agoWhat I dislike about it is as more sites require sms verification, your sms number becomes a 'real id'. Given that your mobile subscriber likely sells your demographic information, it's pretty shit for privacy. A lot of services reject voip numbers for verification.
- tunap 11y agoThis is why 'free' online services require your mobile number to activate & "protect access" to your account. Sure it works for that purpose, but more importantly, for data/digital tracking, the modern mobile has become the new tracking super-cookie to your digital ID.
- reitoei 11y ago> the modern mobile has become the new tracking super-cookie to your digital ID Never a truer word spoken.
- wolfgke 11y agoAre these services really that important for you that you are willing give them your phone number for verification. I personally don't even own a cell phone and up to now I never felt the need of a service that requires SMS verification.
- TACIXAT 11y agoOn my personal accounts, when it was pitched as a security measure, it made a lot of sense. I have been thinking more about privacy and tracking recently, and now it is not nearly as appealing.
- arviewer 11y agoAnd again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.
- ghshephard 11y agoWell, only the criminals that put some effort. Somewhat effective at tracking down the lazy criminals. Also, in places like Singapore, you can only own 5 Data SIMs before they start asking tougher questions. I wasn't aware there were countries that you could purchase data SIMs in without having to hand over passport/government ID, I'd just assumed that was a ubiquitous practice.
- wiredfool 11y agoI've bought several sims in the UK and Ireland over the past year, and none of them have taken an ID.
- lucaspiller 11y agoSame in most of Eastern Europe, just hand over cash and get a SIM card.
- arviewer 11y agoIn the Netherlands you can buy sim cards without any ID. If you pay them cash, there is no link to you, except maybe a security camera in the shop. You don't need to activate them - they work right away.
- nroets 11y agoIn some countries, law enforcement can get a list of devices (IMEI numbers) the sim was used in. Then ask of a list of sims used in that device and a list calls and texts made to / from any of those sims. So, one slip up and the sim will have a link to you.
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- guard-of-terra 11y agoYet another example of "terrorists hurt you, so we're going to hurt you to compensate". Can we please think of something to stop this?
- harperlee 11y agoI know for a fact that there are big banks that don't even have the ID of lots of clients. I'm skeptical of the speed that telcos will apply on the remediation of all these clients. I actually believe the existing clients might stay undocumented forever.
- EGreg 11y agoAnonymity can be obtained in one of two ways: 1) Building up a tree of accounts from anonymous services like mailinator and anonymously bought sim cards and phones 2) Hijacking random people's equipment in order to do 1. By banning anonymous services, people will have to turn to temporary hijacking to achieve the same ends.
- jasiek 11y agoDang, I wonder what would happen if someone were to use fake ID "issued" the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.
- coldcode 11y agoI'm an official in the country of Nagorno-Karabakh, all of our ID's are fake.
- guard-of-terra 11y agoI bet all citizens of Nagorno-Karabakh also hold perfectly valid Armenian passport.
- Kequc 11y agoI didn't even know you could get an anonymous sim. The gauntlet of questions I was asked and the paperwork the salesman thankfully filled out for me, for a prepaid sim, was dizzying. Obviously if I knew I could have just bought one off a shelf I would have.
- expertentipp 11y agoAn ID document and proof of address are already required in Germany when buying SIM card directly from mobile network operators (i.e. Telekom, O2, Vodafone). Apparently they plan to apply the same to resellers and virtual operators.
- jeffasinger 11y agoThe ID requirement and address requirement were not enforced all that strictly when I was last in Germany. I bought a 10EUR SIM with a US driver's license (had left my passport in the hostel, and just wrote down the address of the hostel I was staying at).
- venomsnake 11y agoOh well. I will create a MVNO in some of the tax heavens. Couple of roaming agreements and we are set. And just issue sim cards at large. It will be more expensive. But doable.
- btreesOfSpring 11y agolet's just add to the servicewüste[0] of dealing with communication companies in Germany. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste
- titzer 11y agoI live in Germany. In general Germans are very privacy conscious, due to, as others have mentioned in this thread, experiences with the Stasi. Up until recently with the refugee situation, border control hasn't been too strict, and agents generally don't berate you with questions if you possess validate documents. This pisses me off, and I wager a large portion of the German populace. Let's hope this goes down in flames.
- cloudjacker 11y agoA lot of germans I know are concerned about the new representation of extremist parties in the last elections. My perspective is continually that the existing government fails to represent the people, and any polar opposite party will force the existing government to compromise in their plans, and create policies that do more accurately reflect the will of the people. Exhibit a
- tdkl 11y ago> Up until recently with the refugee situation That's why they were invited - they could never introduce such measures, but now they're making you "safe".
- stegosaurus 11y agoThe last time I visited Germany I was asked for my details in order to buy a phone, and the same to register the SIM card. I just gave invented details both times. So now it's impossible, eh? A mobile phone might be a 'new invention' that you can get away with not using, but what about transport? In my city it's been game over for years, decades even. The London Underground is the one subway in London. It uses a smart card, the cash fares are a multiple of the cost, and there are CCTV cameras everywhere anyway so you're tracked. The red buses removed cash fares and now smart card/contactless bank card are the only way of paying. The central region is plastered in car licence plate recognition cameras so you can't drive. (They exist ostensibly because there is a congestion charge for driving in the central region). You can cycle or walk but facial recognition kills that eventually. So yeah, existing in London basically means the authorities know, or have the ability to know, where you are at all times within a few metres regardless of whether you use a phone or not, it's just a matter of how integrated these databases are and whether anyone can be bothered. To me it feels a lot like, in major cities anyway, this privacy battle is just completely lost, because there are attacks on all fronts. You can have your anonymous phone, but are you wearing face paints? Do you ever drive? Do you ever take public transport? The further you go out of the city, assuming you don't have a mobile phone, I suppose there are fewer data points available. You can roam about in farmer's fields or something, no cameras there yet. Maybe the minor cities have analogue cameras, or they're turned off due to funding, or whatever. It's gone beyond something to be depressed or feel a call to action about at this point I feel - it's a bit like a lion chasing a gazelle - it just is. Fighting against this individual initiative feels good, but is it ultimately futile? The actions required in order to attempt not to fall into these databases seem to have gone from "don't use your real name online" to "don't drive a car" to "don't take trains with your bank card" to "pay cash on the bus" to... eventually it's just done, all of it's tracked, I can pay with cash at the local store but there's a digital IP camera in the corner so sooner or later they know it anyway. And the rational amongst us know that it's not about us. It means nothing that I can go 'off the grid'. What means something is that society as a whole is able to appreciate this, and I think the number of intrusions is high enough now that they simply can't. It's like asking people to go without oxygen. It's everywhere. The fight I'm really concerned with is privacy within the home, in private establishments. I want to know that conversations between me and my friends stay within that box, that private sphere. Miniaturization and propagation of technology just seems to make that an impossible goal, though. I don't want it, but I really feel like privacy is dead, we just don't fully know it yet.
- ChrisArchitect 11y agoas a tourist, first priority on the ground in a new country is to get a data connection. I had more difficulty in Germany than other EU countries visited around the same time. Despite promise of a handful of prepaid sim's available everywhere, activation was a roadblock because no local credit card. Eventually found my way to an O2 store where they used their own store address to activate for me and it was all good
- 05 11y agoThere's a Wiki specifically for that purpose [1]. I had minimal problems buying Fyve (Vodafone MVNO) SIM cards two years ago, activated at the point of purchase if I remember correctly. I had to cut them to Nano SIM size myself though.. [1] http://prepaid-data-sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany http://prepaid-data-sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany
- swimfar 11y agoIn a tangentially related topic, here's an interesting animation of location tracking of a German politician based on his phone records: http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention Malte Spitz sued to have his telephone provider hand over six months of his phone data. He gave it to Zeit Online who used it to create this record of where he had been. It's probably not too surprising to many people any more, but I still find it amazing when I watch it. And it might be interesting to people who don't realize how detailed the information is. I also think the visualisation is nice.
- IvyMike 11y agoIf you've got an Android phone and location history is on, take a look at your own: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline https://www.google.com/maps/timeline
- orbitingpluto 11y agoDid I read that right? Complete address required? First you get rid of the public payphones, then you require a valid address for a mobile. Poof! The homeless truly can disappear.
- nikolay 11y agoThose SIM cards are also banned in Bulgaria, but people find all kinds of way to buy hundreds of cards that belong to retired or mentally ill people, and others or import cards from abroad.
- gozur88 11y agoWhen I was vacationing in Germany years ago I couldn't get a prepaid phone or a sim without having a German address. Did they make it easier only to now make it more difficult?