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Okay then, I disagree with that critical aspect of the argument and dismiss as laughably false the following claim: Passion is fleeting, transient, momentary on

Okay then, I disagree with that critical aspect of the argument and dismiss as laughably false the following claim: Passion is fleeting, transient, momentary on the timescales that achievement requires. I offer the following thought experiment to justify my position: Pick any ten people that everyone agrees have achieved something notable. They could be Olympic athletes, business people, and so forth. Now approach a control group of people who are ignorant of our argument and ask them: "Which of the following ten people are passionate about their sport/business/vocation/what-have-you?" If on aggregate 25% or fewer of the ten are judged to be passionate, I will concede the point. If 75% or more are judged to be passionate, I claim that passion and achievement are not mutually exclusive.

timr 17y ago
Fair enough, but your thought experiment boils down to a survey of people's opinions on the definition of 'passion'. Essentially, you're arguing that the subordinate definition of 'passion' is more valid than the top-line definition of 'passion' (in my dictionary -- see below), and I think that's pretty unconvincing, as arguments go. When we refer to 'passion' colloquially, we're usually referring to something so intense that it cannot last for long (e.g. 'passionate love'). Even if you, personally, don't believe this is true, it's become the basis upon which certain wankers in our industry exploit their youthful and naive employees. I think this is the core of the essay, and it's a valid observation, irrespective of the definition of 'passion' that you happen to prefer. So the definitional debate is a dodge for the real issue: there are a ton of "entrepreneurs" these days who are dressing up exploitation in a fancy suit, calling it sexy, and describing it with words that are conventionally used for love. --- Now, as promised, the definition rom my Mac-tionary: passion (n): 1) strong and barely controllable emotion: a man of impetuous passion I grant you that the third and fourth bullets below this definition concern 'enthusiasm', but it's still quite important that the derivation of the word is from Christian theology, and ultimately from the Latin 'pati', which is 'to suffer' (the implication being that 'passion' is a form of suffering for a cause). I think that's intersting, in the current context.
- raganwald 17y ago
  English is what people make of it. My blog was subtitled "passionate programming" for six years. Never once did I think of passionate programming as something one suffers for a few hours or days then burns out of with disillusion. Have I been wrong all these years? In any event, the second part of your reply is far more interesting, especially in conjunction with a recent HN front page page article suggesting that founders should give employees a bigger taste of early stage liquidation events. For that reason, I am upmodding you.
  - timr 17y ago
    No, I don't think you were wrong. (Unless you're one of those people who used the word to mean "willing to work really hard to make me rich", in which case, you're both wrong and evil. ;-)) I think that a lot of well-meaning people (like yourself) were using "passionate" in the 'enthusiasm' sense. My feeling of this essay is that the author was taking on the people who mean it in the other sense. Personally, I think they're much more common.
    - raganwald 17y ago
      Well, it's rather contextual. If you tell me so-and-so is passionate about women, I am inclined to assume he or she has many temporary passions for many different women. If you tell me they're passionate about women's issues, I am inclined to think this is a matter of conscience that is likely to last a lifetime. But just to be clear, if I was thinking passionate about making money in the business of software, I'd say that :-)

timr 17y ago

Fair enough, but your thought experiment boils down to a survey of people's opinions on the definition of 'passion'. Essentially, you're arguing that the subordinate definition of 'passion' is more valid than the top-line definition of 'passion' (in my dictionary -- see below), and I think that's pretty unconvincing, as arguments go. When we refer to 'passion' colloquially, we're usually referring to something so intense that it cannot last for long (e.g. 'passionate love'). Even if you, personally, don't believe this is true, it's become the basis upon which certain wankers in our industry exploit their youthful and naive employees. I think this is the core of the essay, and it's a valid observation, irrespective of the definition of 'passion' that you happen to prefer. So the definitional debate is a dodge for the real issue: there are a ton of "entrepreneurs" these days who are dressing up exploitation in a fancy suit, calling it sexy, and describing it with words that are conventionally used for love. --- Now, as promised, the definition rom my Mac-tionary: passion (n): 1) strong and barely controllable emotion: a man of impetuous passion I grant you that the third and fourth bullets below this definition concern 'enthusiasm', but it's still quite important that the derivation of the word is from Christian theology, and ultimately from the Latin 'pati', which is 'to suffer' (the implication being that 'passion' is a form of suffering for a cause). I think that's intersting, in the current context.

raganwald 17y ago
English is what people make of it. My blog was subtitled "passionate programming" for six years. Never once did I think of passionate programming as something one suffers for a few hours or days then burns out of with disillusion. Have I been wrong all these years? In any event, the second part of your reply is far more interesting, especially in conjunction with a recent HN front page page article suggesting that founders should give employees a bigger taste of early stage liquidation events. For that reason, I am upmodding you.
- timr 17y ago
  No, I don't think you were wrong. (Unless you're one of those people who used the word to mean "willing to work really hard to make me rich", in which case, you're both wrong and evil. ;-)) I think that a lot of well-meaning people (like yourself) were using "passionate" in the 'enthusiasm' sense. My feeling of this essay is that the author was taking on the people who mean it in the other sense. Personally, I think they're much more common.
  - raganwald 17y ago
    Well, it's rather contextual. If you tell me so-and-so is passionate about women, I am inclined to assume he or she has many temporary passions for many different women. If you tell me they're passionate about women's issues, I am inclined to think this is a matter of conscience that is likely to last a lifetime. But just to be clear, if I was thinking passionate about making money in the business of software, I'd say that :-)