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I don't deny that there is some history in the current representation of programmers but I don't buy that socially awkward white males are somehow oppressing di

I don't deny that there is some history in the current representation of programmers but I don't buy that socially awkward white males are somehow oppressing diversity in general as some would suggest. When they supposedly aren't, it's a brogrammer problem and blatant sexism. Everyone wants to find someone to blame. Granted this was 9 years ago, but when I was in computer engineering we had a few classes with only 1 female. All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. I'm a partner in a 6 yr old business and I've just recently started to see more women programmers. Most of my job postings would get zero female applicants. However, my last 2 engineering hires were women that came through our internal network and they've been excellent. Account managers and project managers - generally women applicants. Engineers = male nerds of all types. I welcome more female engineers but it's challenging to hire them if there aren't enough and they don't apply. EDIT: spelling

coffeandcode 11y ago
I don't think the article was really putting socially awkward white males to blame. I believe it tried to say that the diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job. And this accumulated over time reinforcing the notion until recently that it's sort of a no girls land. I can't help but feel that you're kinda shifting the blame when you say that there are just not enough female candidates otherwise you'd be perfectly happy to hire them and of course you would be. Maybe the problem really is in the way career possibilities are presented to children from early on. My brother is a programmer with years of experience - he got a pc when very young that I really didn't have access to and he was making fun of me when I got into a coding job because I it didn't really suit me, even though I have a CS degree. That doesn't mean he is to blame, it's just how we are brought up. Arts and humanities go girls, STEM go boys.
- blah5432 11y ago
  diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job Based on... which facts exactly? Edit: As far as I can see, the picture is that there's a bunch of socially inept males that some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay. This is utterly ridiculous, no matter which amount of social science "evidence" you put into it. I'll be retired by then, but I'm pretty sure enough time will put this crazy notion to rest.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    shadowy powers carefully select I don't think anyone's claiming that.
    - mpweiher 11y ago
      Actually, that is exactly the claim. For example, the book "The Computer Boys Take Over" quoted all over in TFA claims that the drive to "professionalize" programming and make it more "engineering like" was specifically to drive women out, after men found out the profession was gaining status and money in the late 70ies and early 80ies. Which is ridiculous on so many fronts, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. And of course makes me not give too much credit to anyone basing their argument on that book.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Oh, fair enough, I understood a different thesis from the article (of a self-reinforcing stereotype among employers).
        blah5432 11y ago
        This is a blame game. It's tried on individuals. When they reject accusations, there's the "you are biased even if you don't realize" and then the "you are a tool in the hands of an oppressing society". If you can't convince, at least seed the doubt. Have you seen what happens when there are no employers? Open source projects, I mean. It's qualified then as a "toxic culture" with "ambient pressure", "terrified women" and so on. There is a handful of nonsense viruses that survive and flourish in the interwebs, concepts that are instantly rejected as absurd but have enough followers to keep then alive for years. Either you detect them early or you will be pushed by peer pressure (until the fad goes away). Unfortunately the clear feeling that something is totally wrong and backwards (like EU defending Samsumg right to push its crap instead of Google apps) fades very quickly to propaganda.
        mpweiher 11y ago
eaq 11y ago
> All the nerdy types flocked to her Is it unimaginable that this might be uncomfortable?
- cronjobber 11y ago
  Yes, we clearly need to tell nerds they can't interact with females, because... ...help me out here. Because nerds are icky?
  - mdpye 11y ago
    Because it's still a way of being singled out, even if well intentioned. Do you think they flocked for the lone woman's benefit?
    - okasaki 11y ago
      What do you think?
  - Terr_ 11y ago
    Perhaps the label "creepy", which some argue is disproportionately reliant on the attractiveness of the subject rather than what they say or do.
    - exclusiv 11y ago
      So true. There was a funny skit on SNL where Tom Brady and another guy said the exact same things and Tom was welcomed while the other guy was creepy and hit with a lawsuit. http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966 http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassme...
- tajen 11y ago
  This is still blaming nerds for something they really can't do anything about. There's really a gap between "scientific surveys" and the terrain I've seen. In my last project as contractor there were 9 male/developers and 4 females with a management title. The meantime-to-management I've seen is 2 years after graduation for women, 7 years for males. All 15% females of my 150-student class are now in management positions, 10 years after IT master's degree, and only 50% of the male students. If a women really wants to know what discrimination is, just step in as a male. I've left companies where I wasn't promoted and created my startup 3 years ago. Sounds like my skills weren't the problem: I'm doing better than seasoned product managers who left the same company and created startups in my field, so as a developer I'm better at product management than my previous employer foresaw. But it sure seemed very important to my previous employer to promote a female team lead.
onion2k 11y ago
All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. That woman would have had to question why the nerdy types were so keen to include her. There's a huge difference between a motive of "Let's invite someone to our team because they're a great engineer" and "Let's invite someone to our team because they're hot and they might agree to date me once they really know me". Being keen to include someone is great if it's for the right reasons.
- kabouseng 11y ago
  Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
  - sgift 11y ago
    That were my thoughts too .. if they had ignored her "You see, nerds ignore women and make them feel unwelcome", now "see, they are creeps, that makes woman feel unwelcome" - and if you ask "what is your solution?" "They should behave normal." which is the most useless answer ever. If I ask ten people about normal behaviour in a given situation I get ten answers and if I drill a bit further more like 40 answers, almost all probably starting with something like "Well, in this context .." or "If you frame it this way .." One could almost think that human behaviour is complex, but only almost .. everything is black and white, go on, nothing to see here. /s
    - icebraining 11y ago
      On the other hand, just because the solution is unclear, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
      - sgift 11y ago
        Certainly, but almost everything can be redefined as a problem, because almost everything can be a problem. In a given context. For a problem you need a problem definition or things get very murky, very fast and you end in "just do the normal thing" territory, which is what I wanted to highlight with my comment above.

coffeandcode 11y ago

I don't think the article was really putting socially awkward white males to blame. I believe it tried to say that the diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job. And this accumulated over time reinforcing the notion until recently that it's sort of a no girls land. I can't help but feel that you're kinda shifting the blame when you say that there are just not enough female candidates otherwise you'd be perfectly happy to hire them and of course you would be. Maybe the problem really is in the way career possibilities are presented to children from early on. My brother is a programmer with years of experience - he got a pc when very young that I really didn't have access to and he was making fun of me when I got into a coding job because I it didn't really suit me, even though I have a CS degree. That doesn't mean he is to blame, it's just how we are brought up. Arts and humanities go girls, STEM go boys.

blah5432 11y ago
diversity (or lack of it) of the field is a result of the shift in targeting a certain type of person for the programmer's job Based on... which facts exactly? Edit: As far as I can see, the picture is that there's a bunch of socially inept males that some shadowy powers carefully select to make a mysoginistic getto to keep women at bay. This is utterly ridiculous, no matter which amount of social science "evidence" you put into it. I'll be retired by then, but I'm pretty sure enough time will put this crazy notion to rest.
- icebraining 11y ago
  shadowy powers carefully select I don't think anyone's claiming that.
  - mpweiher 11y ago
    Actually, that is exactly the claim. For example, the book "The Computer Boys Take Over" quoted all over in TFA claims that the drive to "professionalize" programming and make it more "engineering like" was specifically to drive women out, after men found out the profession was gaining status and money in the late 70ies and early 80ies. Which is ridiculous on so many fronts, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. And of course makes me not give too much credit to anyone basing their argument on that book.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Oh, fair enough, I understood a different thesis from the article (of a self-reinforcing stereotype among employers).
      - blah5432 11y ago
        This is a blame game. It's tried on individuals. When they reject accusations, there's the "you are biased even if you don't realize" and then the "you are a tool in the hands of an oppressing society". If you can't convince, at least seed the doubt. Have you seen what happens when there are no employers? Open source projects, I mean. It's qualified then as a "toxic culture" with "ambient pressure", "terrified women" and so on. There is a handful of nonsense viruses that survive and flourish in the interwebs, concepts that are instantly rejected as absurd but have enough followers to keep then alive for years. Either you detect them early or you will be pushed by peer pressure (until the fad goes away). Unfortunately the clear feeling that something is totally wrong and backwards (like EU defending Samsumg right to push its crap instead of Google apps) fades very quickly to propaganda.
        mpweiher 11y ago

eaq 11y ago

> All the nerdy types flocked to her Is it unimaginable that this might be uncomfortable?

cronjobber 11y ago
Yes, we clearly need to tell nerds they can't interact with females, because... ...help me out here. Because nerds are icky?
- mdpye 11y ago
  Because it's still a way of being singled out, even if well intentioned. Do you think they flocked for the lone woman's benefit?
  - okasaki 11y ago
    What do you think?
- Terr_ 11y ago
  Perhaps the label "creepy", which some argue is disproportionately reliant on the attractiveness of the subject rather than what they say or do.
  - exclusiv 11y ago
    So true. There was a funny skit on SNL where Tom Brady and another guy said the exact same things and Tom was welcomed while the other guy was creepy and hit with a lawsuit. http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966 http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassme...
tajen 11y ago
This is still blaming nerds for something they really can't do anything about. There's really a gap between "scientific surveys" and the terrain I've seen. In my last project as contractor there were 9 male/developers and 4 females with a management title. The meantime-to-management I've seen is 2 years after graduation for women, 7 years for males. All 15% females of my 150-student class are now in management positions, 10 years after IT master's degree, and only 50% of the male students. If a women really wants to know what discrimination is, just step in as a male. I've left companies where I wasn't promoted and created my startup 3 years ago. Sounds like my skills weren't the problem: I'm doing better than seasoned product managers who left the same company and created startups in my field, so as a developer I'm better at product management than my previous employer foresaw. But it sure seemed very important to my previous employer to promote a female team lead.

onion2k 11y ago

All the nerdy types flocked to her and were very inclusive with team projects. That woman would have had to question why the nerdy types were so keen to include her. There's a huge difference between a motive of "Let's invite someone to our team because they're a great engineer" and "Let's invite someone to our team because they're hot and they might agree to date me once they really know me". Being keen to include someone is great if it's for the right reasons.

kabouseng 11y ago
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
- sgift 11y ago
  That were my thoughts too .. if they had ignored her "You see, nerds ignore women and make them feel unwelcome", now "see, they are creeps, that makes woman feel unwelcome" - and if you ask "what is your solution?" "They should behave normal." which is the most useless answer ever. If I ask ten people about normal behaviour in a given situation I get ten answers and if I drill a bit further more like 40 answers, almost all probably starting with something like "Well, in this context .." or "If you frame it this way .." One could almost think that human behaviour is complex, but only almost .. everything is black and white, go on, nothing to see here. /s
  - icebraining 11y ago
    On the other hand, just because the solution is unclear, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.
    - sgift 11y ago
      Certainly, but almost everything can be redefined as a problem, because almost everything can be a problem. In a given context. For a problem you need a problem definition or things get very murky, very fast and you end in "just do the normal thing" territory, which is what I wanted to highlight with my comment above.