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>Seems like they've ran out of other people's money indeed. No, the nationalized oil wells are still owned by the Venezuelan people. What they ran out of is th

>Seems like they've ran out of other people's money indeed. No, the nationalized oil wells are still owned by the Venezuelan people. What they ran out of is the era of high oil prices. Most of their economy hinges on oil prices. They're a lot like Detroit in that a single industry overdetermines their outcome. On the plus side, Venezuela is nothing like Detroit in that there is no private capital flight leading a rush for the exits taking that industry with them. Detroit: now THERE'S a case of running away with other people's money. And livelihoods. And clean water. Of course, Bloomberg won't be spending a lot of time chest-beating about that.

bpodgursky 11y ago
Venezuela's oil production capacity collapsed after nationalization. It's not just prices. The nationalization destroyed foreign investment, talent fled the country, and cronyism put incompetent people in charge of factories and industries they didn't understand. It's dishonest to pretend this is only due to oil prices.
- harrumph 11y ago
  Congrats: you've echoed the same argument against people owning their resources that boardrooms have been using against populations since Iran in 1953. "They're far too dumb to survey, drill and pump their own oil." Yeah, no.
  - golergka 11y ago
    In your eyes, "public ownership is ineffective" = "they're too dumb"? Yeah, no.
    - harrumph 11y ago
      >In your eyes, "public ownership is ineffective" = "they're too dumb"? Yeah, no. The former is corporate-speak annual-report, think-tank framing, the latter is paternalistic, cigars-on-the-golf-course framing, but both are identical messages: colonialist horseshit used -- for centuries now -- to justify looting and extraction from populations. Adults should be able to see through this stuff by now.
      - bpodgursky 11y ago
        It's probably not worth engaging with you, since your language suggests you are unwilling to even consider any new views, but "public ownership is ineffective" how does this have anything to do with colonialism? I think that public ownership is almost always inefficient compared to an effective market. I believe it is true in the first world, I believe it is true in the third world. don't try to contort it into racism.
        harrumph 11y ago
        >It's probably not worth engaging with you Oh, don't worry about me. Worry instead about the dumb, ahistorical position you've staked out here. 1) You claimed VZ's oil industry was "incompetent" and that its "talent fled" leading to the people of VZ being "unable to understand" their industry. These were your exact words. But when I correctly summed up your argument with the paraphrase "they're too dumb," all of a sudden you back away from your own argument, as if it had shat itself. That cheesy evasion on your part inclines adults to be MORE suspicious of your argument, not less. 2) Literally every argument for colonial extraction of resources from indigenous populations has, for centuries of history now, been made in exactly the manner you have made it: the locals aren't advanced enough to realize the value from their resources. Therefore we HAVE to mine the gold, drill the oil, harvest the fruit, etc. Thus, foreign "investment" is necessary. This is capitalism at its most disgusting: dressed up in frilly underwear with "altruism" stitched across its ass. The argument is the definition of self-serving, and, as I've said, adults should be able to see through it by now. I can tell you the indigenous peoples of Iran, Chile, Nigeria, Canada, the US, Australia, Venezuala, ad infinitum, already do.
        Jtsummers 11y ago
        > cronyism put incompetent people in charge of factories and industries they didn't understand. GP's words. > leading to the people of VZ being "unable to understand" their industry Your words. Those do not mean the same thing. GP is referring to the cronies in charge when they say "people". Not the people of Venezuela.
oldmanjay 11y ago
"High oil prices" can be exchanged for "other people's money" in this particular truism. Edit in case it wasn't clear: because that's the mechanism by which other people's money was brought into the system.

bpodgursky 11y ago

Venezuela's oil production capacity collapsed after nationalization. It's not just prices. The nationalization destroyed foreign investment, talent fled the country, and cronyism put incompetent people in charge of factories and industries they didn't understand. It's dishonest to pretend this is only due to oil prices.

harrumph 11y ago
Congrats: you've echoed the same argument against people owning their resources that boardrooms have been using against populations since Iran in 1953. "They're far too dumb to survey, drill and pump their own oil." Yeah, no.
- golergka 11y ago
  In your eyes, "public ownership is ineffective" = "they're too dumb"? Yeah, no.
  - harrumph 11y ago
    >In your eyes, "public ownership is ineffective" = "they're too dumb"? Yeah, no. The former is corporate-speak annual-report, think-tank framing, the latter is paternalistic, cigars-on-the-golf-course framing, but both are identical messages: colonialist horseshit used -- for centuries now -- to justify looting and extraction from populations. Adults should be able to see through this stuff by now.
    - bpodgursky 11y ago
      It's probably not worth engaging with you, since your language suggests you are unwilling to even consider any new views, but "public ownership is ineffective" how does this have anything to do with colonialism? I think that public ownership is almost always inefficient compared to an effective market. I believe it is true in the first world, I believe it is true in the third world. don't try to contort it into racism.
      - harrumph 11y ago
        >It's probably not worth engaging with you Oh, don't worry about me. Worry instead about the dumb, ahistorical position you've staked out here. 1) You claimed VZ's oil industry was "incompetent" and that its "talent fled" leading to the people of VZ being "unable to understand" their industry. These were your exact words. But when I correctly summed up your argument with the paraphrase "they're too dumb," all of a sudden you back away from your own argument, as if it had shat itself. That cheesy evasion on your part inclines adults to be MORE suspicious of your argument, not less. 2) Literally every argument for colonial extraction of resources from indigenous populations has, for centuries of history now, been made in exactly the manner you have made it: the locals aren't advanced enough to realize the value from their resources. Therefore we HAVE to mine the gold, drill the oil, harvest the fruit, etc. Thus, foreign "investment" is necessary. This is capitalism at its most disgusting: dressed up in frilly underwear with "altruism" stitched across its ass. The argument is the definition of self-serving, and, as I've said, adults should be able to see through it by now. I can tell you the indigenous peoples of Iran, Chile, Nigeria, Canada, the US, Australia, Venezuala, ad infinitum, already do.
        Jtsummers 11y ago
        > cronyism put incompetent people in charge of factories and industries they didn't understand. GP's words. > leading to the people of VZ being "unable to understand" their industry Your words. Those do not mean the same thing. GP is referring to the cronies in charge when they say "people". Not the people of Venezuela.

oldmanjay 11y ago

"High oil prices" can be exchanged for "other people's money" in this particular truism. Edit in case it wasn't clear: because that's the mechanism by which other people's money was brought into the system.