27 ms·

Alternative Title: "Fund built from selling petroleum gets holier than thou with selling coal"

arrrg 11y ago
The fund … doesn’t? They just seem to be following new regulations, regulations that, apparently, aren’t even uncontroversial. The fund is not the Norwegian government, the Norwegian government is not the Norwegian parliament. This article doesn’t even say anything about what the fund thinks about this. It’s just matter of fact reporting on regulation changes and consequences. (All we know is that a majority in the parliament is in favor – and that’s why this law exists – and the minority government was “reluctant” concerning this law.) The article doesn’t even explicitly say anything at all about motives.
pm90 11y ago
Arguably, all of modern capitalism was built on the back of some very dirty and polluting technology. Would you say, then, that the capital of all the developed world is tainted?
- jacobolus 11y ago
  Not to mention significant amounts of slave labor, child labor, war profiteering, fraud, outright theft, etc. In other words, by similar logic it could be called “holier-than-thou” for westerners to have any standards whatsoever about investment choices, because our wealth is built on all kinds of unsavory sources.
  - caminante 11y ago
    "by similar logic..." Please...do other countries currently have 22% of GDP tied to [slave labor, child labor, war profiteering, fraud, outright theft, etc.]? [1] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/count... edit: In other words, by similar logic it could be called “holier-than-thou” for westerners to have any standards whatsoever about investment choices, because our wealth is built on all kinds of unsavory sources. I also find it ironic that "westerner" in your world doesn't seem to include Norwegians ;-).
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    And you will see the likes of China pull that card whenever there is some kind of international talk about something that will affect their industries.
- caminante 11y ago
  Except, in Norway, their pension and economy are STILL getting built on O&G. I think your claims are too extreme. edit: adding quote from European Commission data "Norway is in the global top 5 exporters of crude oil. The oil and gas sector constitutes around 22% of Norwegian GDP and 67% of Norwegian exports." [1] [1] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/count...
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    At this point in time, it feels like a national addiction. We know it will be over some days, we know it does all kinds of harm, but we seem incapable of stopping. The nation is as we "speak" grinding to a slow halt thanks to the oil slump. And during the peak people were all set about starting extraction in the middle of one of the nations biggest fishing areas.
  - jakub_h 11y ago
    "their pension and economy are STILL getting built on O&G" I don't quite get the peculiar use of the word "still" in your sentence, seeing as the topic seems to be ditching coal and not ditching oil or gas.
    - caminante 11y ago
      Yes, the NOR pension is ditching* coal. That said, you're not fairly representing the context of my comment. The parent comment made this exaggerated critique, saying that "all of modern capitalism" can be considered tainted based on PRIOR behavior (assuming the grandparent's comment were valid.) This is not only a strawman, but absurd. I'm pointing out that it isn't limited to prior behavior for what we're talking about. Here, we have a petro-state with 2/3 of its exports STILL in O&G (aka "dirty technology") taking a stance on coal because coal's not Environment Friendly™. This contrasts with countries that were built on "dirty tech/slavery/whatever" and are no longer utilizing similar means. To clarify, nobody's saying NOR can't change course or exhibit environmental leadership. I'd argue NOR's investment implications and the $2.3B change in allocation aren't significant.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  All economies were built on the back of dirty and polluting technology.
- e12e 11y ago
  I recall seeing a documentary about the start of Silicon Valley, where a lot of the early money came from Rockefeller and other "east coast" money. Does that mean that the current tech industry owes a debt to Standard Oil? Probably. Is it relevant? Probably not.
chris_wot 11y ago
That's ridiculous. This is a laudable first step towards divesting themselves from carbon-producing industries! You have to start somewhere, coal is as good as any place to start I think.
peteretep 11y ago
To clarify, you'd rather they doubled-down on an investment in coal?
- barney54 11y ago
  I would rather they focus on making money for Norwegians and making the lives of people in other country better.
  - PascalsMugger 11y ago
    You'd like them to improve people's lives by continutuing to invest in coal? You think that forgoing a minuscule return (or actually probably increasing return) to dampen an industry that is demonstratably harming people in the present and probably harming people into the future is helping people?
    - bbcbasic 11y ago
      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m+all+right+Jack http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m+all+rig...!
Shenxi 11y ago
Should everyone stop trying to make improvements, lest they attract the attention of your self-defeating cynicism?
ihsw 11y ago
The fund's international speculative investment portfolio has seen positive YOY growth, and it was only recently that the NBIM has decided to go ahead with actively tackling social and environmental issues. And Norway's petroleum engineering is top notch. Frankly I think the moral superiority is justified -- they have an opportunity to make a positive contribution to the world and they didn't sabotage the planet or employ slave labor to get here.
- bogomipz 11y ago
  What do you imagine was done with all of that oil that they sold? Do you think it wasn't put into combustion engines? Do you think that Norwegian oil that was sold somehow wasn't emitted in the form of C02 into the atmosphere?
  - peteretep 11y ago
    If they hadn't sold it, there'd be more money and power flowing to other oil-producing countries, many of whom have had a considerably worse impact on the world than originating Barbie Girl.
    - evv555 11y ago
      Is that why you think they sold petroleum? Out of the goodness of their heart? Not that I disagree with Norway's decision. It's a nuanced topic.
    - hueving 11y ago
      Higher oil prices discourages use. By participating in the market they are indirectly encouraging use. There is no way to wash your hands of selling oil.
    - Arnt 11y ago
      Oh please. That was Denmark. And now you've inserted the ditty into my brain, where it problably will stay all day. Shame!
throweway 11y ago
Or... once you are rich you can afford a high horse.

arrrg 11y ago

The fund … doesn’t? They just seem to be following new regulations, regulations that, apparently, aren’t even uncontroversial. The fund is not the Norwegian government, the Norwegian government is not the Norwegian parliament. This article doesn’t even say anything about what the fund thinks about this. It’s just matter of fact reporting on regulation changes and consequences. (All we know is that a majority in the parliament is in favor – and that’s why this law exists – and the minority government was “reluctant” concerning this law.) The article doesn’t even explicitly say anything at all about motives.

pm90 11y ago

Arguably, all of modern capitalism was built on the back of some very dirty and polluting technology. Would you say, then, that the capital of all the developed world is tainted?

jacobolus 11y ago
Not to mention significant amounts of slave labor, child labor, war profiteering, fraud, outright theft, etc. In other words, by similar logic it could be called “holier-than-thou” for westerners to have any standards whatsoever about investment choices, because our wealth is built on all kinds of unsavory sources.
- caminante 11y ago
  "by similar logic..." Please...do other countries currently have 22% of GDP tied to [slave labor, child labor, war profiteering, fraud, outright theft, etc.]? [1] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/count... edit: In other words, by similar logic it could be called “holier-than-thou” for westerners to have any standards whatsoever about investment choices, because our wealth is built on all kinds of unsavory sources. I also find it ironic that "westerner" in your world doesn't seem to include Norwegians ;-).
- digi_owl 11y ago
  And you will see the likes of China pull that card whenever there is some kind of international talk about something that will affect their industries.
caminante 11y ago
Except, in Norway, their pension and economy are STILL getting built on O&G. I think your claims are too extreme. edit: adding quote from European Commission data "Norway is in the global top 5 exporters of crude oil. The oil and gas sector constitutes around 22% of Norwegian GDP and 67% of Norwegian exports." [1] [1] http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/ http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/count...
- digi_owl 11y ago
  At this point in time, it feels like a national addiction. We know it will be over some days, we know it does all kinds of harm, but we seem incapable of stopping. The nation is as we "speak" grinding to a slow halt thanks to the oil slump. And during the peak people were all set about starting extraction in the middle of one of the nations biggest fishing areas.
- jakub_h 11y ago
  "their pension and economy are STILL getting built on O&G" I don't quite get the peculiar use of the word "still" in your sentence, seeing as the topic seems to be ditching coal and not ditching oil or gas.
  - caminante 11y ago
    Yes, the NOR pension is ditching* coal. That said, you're not fairly representing the context of my comment. The parent comment made this exaggerated critique, saying that "all of modern capitalism" can be considered tainted based on PRIOR behavior (assuming the grandparent's comment were valid.) This is not only a strawman, but absurd. I'm pointing out that it isn't limited to prior behavior for what we're talking about. Here, we have a petro-state with 2/3 of its exports STILL in O&G (aka "dirty technology") taking a stance on coal because coal's not Environment Friendly™. This contrasts with countries that were built on "dirty tech/slavery/whatever" and are no longer utilizing similar means. To clarify, nobody's saying NOR can't change course or exhibit environmental leadership. I'd argue NOR's investment implications and the $2.3B change in allocation aren't significant.
WalterBright 11y ago
All economies were built on the back of dirty and polluting technology.
e12e 11y ago
I recall seeing a documentary about the start of Silicon Valley, where a lot of the early money came from Rockefeller and other "east coast" money. Does that mean that the current tech industry owes a debt to Standard Oil? Probably. Is it relevant? Probably not.

chris_wot 11y ago

That's ridiculous. This is a laudable first step towards divesting themselves from carbon-producing industries! You have to start somewhere, coal is as good as any place to start I think.

peteretep 11y ago

To clarify, you'd rather they doubled-down on an investment in coal?

barney54 11y ago
I would rather they focus on making money for Norwegians and making the lives of people in other country better.
- PascalsMugger 11y ago
  You'd like them to improve people's lives by continutuing to invest in coal? You think that forgoing a minuscule return (or actually probably increasing return) to dampen an industry that is demonstratably harming people in the present and probably harming people into the future is helping people?
  - bbcbasic 11y ago
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m+all+right+Jack http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%27m+all+rig...!

Shenxi 11y ago

Should everyone stop trying to make improvements, lest they attract the attention of your self-defeating cynicism?

ihsw 11y ago

The fund's international speculative investment portfolio has seen positive YOY growth, and it was only recently that the NBIM has decided to go ahead with actively tackling social and environmental issues. And Norway's petroleum engineering is top notch. Frankly I think the moral superiority is justified -- they have an opportunity to make a positive contribution to the world and they didn't sabotage the planet or employ slave labor to get here.

bogomipz 11y ago
What do you imagine was done with all of that oil that they sold? Do you think it wasn't put into combustion engines? Do you think that Norwegian oil that was sold somehow wasn't emitted in the form of C02 into the atmosphere?
- peteretep 11y ago
  If they hadn't sold it, there'd be more money and power flowing to other oil-producing countries, many of whom have had a considerably worse impact on the world than originating Barbie Girl.
  - evv555 11y ago
    Is that why you think they sold petroleum? Out of the goodness of their heart? Not that I disagree with Norway's decision. It's a nuanced topic.
  - hueving 11y ago
    Higher oil prices discourages use. By participating in the market they are indirectly encouraging use. There is no way to wash your hands of selling oil.
  - Arnt 11y ago
    Oh please. That was Denmark. And now you've inserted the ditty into my brain, where it problably will stay all day. Shame!

throweway 11y ago

Or... once you are rich you can afford a high horse.