6 ms·

Why do the US need an ally in the middle east? Allies should share values.

by dukoid 11y ago

TheLogothete 11y ago
It's a tad bit more complicated than that in real world.
dukoid 11y ago
@TheLogothete I agree. "It's complicated" doesn't really counter any of the arguments substantially though.
dogma1138 11y ago
So Israel and the US don't share values now?
- Retric 11y ago
  It's on the low end, less than Japan more than Brazil. The real issue is they don't share strategic interests largely by being on the other side of the planet.
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    I think you are confusing values with interest. EDIT: You seem to edit that part in, well if the US some how manages to strip any interests in the near east then yes they do not have that many strategic interests (outside of trade, research and industry). However as far as values go the are more or less on the same page, the only difference it's considerably more easy to commit to your values when everyone around you plays by the same rules. That said the US is probably the worse as far as it comes to actually living by their values of most western nations.
    - Retric 11y ago
      US, is fairly balanced in terms of oil trade. We don't share borders with the area. Direct trade is relatively speaking minimal as US to Israel ~1% of total US trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_pa... We don't even ship stuff though the area. That said, our foreign policy really does not seem to reflect this. Values wise it's different cultures, languages, religious landscapes etc. Sure, nominally we are both liberal democracy's that value free markets. But, in practice things like immigration policy's demonstrate huge differences. PS: That said we do have close ties and are Israel's largest import and export partner.
  - TheLogothete 11y ago
    The US has interests in every square inch of the planet.
    - clavalle 11y ago
      Who doesn't? We all share this tiny oasis of life.
      - onetimePete 11y ago
        to stay in the analogy - and some are gazelles and some are cheetahs?
quanticle 11y ago
Countries don't have values. Countries have interests. If the US had to wait until every country it dealt with lived up to the same level of democracy and civil rights that it reserves for its own citizens, we would have no allies outside of Europe.
- Razengan 11y ago
  And Japan.
- dukoid 11y ago
  The West certainly should help the ones that show the desire to improve. That's different from making the worst offenders the biggest allies though.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    > The West certainly should help the ones that show the desire to improve. That's different from making the worst offenders the biggest allies though. No shit. The ancient Athenians invented democracy but I believe the US has made exporting democracy all around the world a vocation. So many successes: Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine, Morocco. As a European I would like to ask to stop exporting democracy for at least a decade, the world needs a break, really.
    - clavalle 11y ago
      Oh, ok. We'll go ahead and save ourselves enough cash to cover the GDP of your country, then, and ramp down our military in your neck of the woods. You don't mind defending your own democracy from the likes of Vladamir Putin et. al. right? You missed a few countries on your list a bit closer to home.
      - spdustin 11y ago
        Sarcasm doesn't help. I'm an American, born and raised, and I'm frankly sick and tired that the xenophobic nonsense that the more vocal of us seeks to propagate has influenced foreign opinion of all Americans. I cannot tell you how embarrassed I've been, when on foreign soil, finding myself correcting (or worse sometimes, agreeing with) their notions of what life in America is like, because life in America is different for all of us. Homogenous isn't a word that would even occur to me to describe "the American way of life". With that kind of sarcasm, you can hardly blame them. It's incendiary speech, and you do not speak for all Americans, so kindly stop using hateful and sarcastic language while sounding like you do speak for all of us. You're free to share your own brand of "'Merica" with whomever you please, but you do not speak on my behalf. Additionally, thinly veiled threats of violence, no matter how cloaked in sarcasm they may be, betray a lack of grace under pressure, and a deeper resentment than is unhealthy to be left ignored. And GP: you don't speak for all of the EU (or of Europe) either. I'm sure you meant the former because most of the rest of Europe's populace doesn't seem to give two shits about us because they have their own problems back at home.

Why do the US need an ally in the middle east? Allies should share values.

by dukoid 11y ago

Why do the US need an ally in the middle east? Allies should share values.

TheLogothete 11y ago

It's a tad bit more complicated than that in real world.

dukoid 11y ago

@TheLogothete I agree. "It's complicated" doesn't really counter any of the arguments substantially though.

dogma1138 11y ago

So Israel and the US don't share values now?

Retric 11y ago
It's on the low end, less than Japan more than Brazil. The real issue is they don't share strategic interests largely by being on the other side of the planet.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  I think you are confusing values with interest. EDIT: You seem to edit that part in, well if the US some how manages to strip any interests in the near east then yes they do not have that many strategic interests (outside of trade, research and industry). However as far as values go the are more or less on the same page, the only difference it's considerably more easy to commit to your values when everyone around you plays by the same rules. That said the US is probably the worse as far as it comes to actually living by their values of most western nations.
  - Retric 11y ago
    US, is fairly balanced in terms of oil trade. We don't share borders with the area. Direct trade is relatively speaking minimal as US to Israel ~1% of total US trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_pa... We don't even ship stuff though the area. That said, our foreign policy really does not seem to reflect this. Values wise it's different cultures, languages, religious landscapes etc. Sure, nominally we are both liberal democracy's that value free markets. But, in practice things like immigration policy's demonstrate huge differences. PS: That said we do have close ties and are Israel's largest import and export partner.
- TheLogothete 11y ago
  The US has interests in every square inch of the planet.
  - clavalle 11y ago
    Who doesn't? We all share this tiny oasis of life.
    - onetimePete 11y ago
      to stay in the analogy - and some are gazelles and some are cheetahs?

quanticle 11y ago

Countries don't have values. Countries have interests. If the US had to wait until every country it dealt with lived up to the same level of democracy and civil rights that it reserves for its own citizens, we would have no allies outside of Europe.

Razengan 11y ago
And Japan.
dukoid 11y ago
The West certainly should help the ones that show the desire to improve. That's different from making the worst offenders the biggest allies though.
- atmosx 11y ago
  > The West certainly should help the ones that show the desire to improve. That's different from making the worst offenders the biggest allies though. No shit. The ancient Athenians invented democracy but I believe the US has made exporting democracy all around the world a vocation. So many successes: Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine, Morocco. As a European I would like to ask to stop exporting democracy for at least a decade, the world needs a break, really.
  - clavalle 11y ago
    Oh, ok. We'll go ahead and save ourselves enough cash to cover the GDP of your country, then, and ramp down our military in your neck of the woods. You don't mind defending your own democracy from the likes of Vladamir Putin et. al. right? You missed a few countries on your list a bit closer to home.
    - spdustin 11y ago
      Sarcasm doesn't help. I'm an American, born and raised, and I'm frankly sick and tired that the xenophobic nonsense that the more vocal of us seeks to propagate has influenced foreign opinion of all Americans. I cannot tell you how embarrassed I've been, when on foreign soil, finding myself correcting (or worse sometimes, agreeing with) their notions of what life in America is like, because life in America is different for all of us. Homogenous isn't a word that would even occur to me to describe "the American way of life". With that kind of sarcasm, you can hardly blame them. It's incendiary speech, and you do not speak for all Americans, so kindly stop using hateful and sarcastic language while sounding like you do speak for all of us. You're free to share your own brand of "'Merica" with whomever you please, but you do not speak on my behalf. Additionally, thinly veiled threats of violence, no matter how cloaked in sarcasm they may be, betray a lack of grace under pressure, and a deeper resentment than is unhealthy to be left ignored. And GP: you don't speak for all of the EU (or of Europe) either. I'm sure you meant the former because most of the rest of Europe's populace doesn't seem to give two shits about us because they have their own problems back at home.