4 ms·

Then Build more Airframes... Start up the production again, I would rather them scrap the F35 program, which is vaporware at this point, than the A10

adamson 10y ago
Huh? F-35s are in production
- bpodgursky 10y ago
  F-35s will not be able to fire their cannons until the 2020's (last I checked), because the software has not been written.
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    2019 That said, the decision to declare Initial Operating Capacity with a software load that only has 89% of the aircraft's functionality is some politicized bullshit by the USAF.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    That must be one fancy-pants cannon if it takes three years to write the software to drive it. How is that even possible?
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      Cannons have substantially nastier failure modes than the latest Twitter clone, and as such have much longer software development and testing cycles. A look into a similar process with NASA: http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff
      - mikeash 10y ago
        My incredulity is not because I think it's easy to write reliable software, but because a cannon shouldn't need more than "if button then fire." From the other reply, apparently it's way more complex than that though.
        engi_nerd 10y ago
        Additional complexity comes from the F-35's Stores Management System (SMS). In addition to the basic accounting tasks of keeping track of what kinds of weapons are loaded, and on which stations, the SMS keeps track of how much the stores at each station weigh and provides that information to the flight control system (FLCS). FLCS can then compensate for the weight distribution of the stores. The gun must integrate with the SMS. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/TuesdayLandmarkADougHayward.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/TuesdayLandmarkADougHa... for some more information.
    - gozur88 10y ago
      Because you don't engage manually any more. As I pointed out in above, the A (air superiority) version has only 120 rounds of ammo, which is three seconds worth. If you're using the gun you tell the computer "I want to shoot that guy", at which point you try to get him onto the pip on your display, which is going to move around depending on your relative velocity and distance. The computer actually fires the gun when it decides the round will hit. If you had to do it manually you'd most likely run out of ammo before you hit anything. The air-to-ground system is similar. So the software isn't just firing the gun. It's integrating data from all its sensors to figure out when to fire based on what you're trying to hit. I assume they have cut-outs friendlies as well, so you don't accidentally shoot your wingman.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Because the cannon is useless. It's only there because every time you point out it's useless people start yammering about the F-4, a plane that came out five decades ago. Even when the gun is working, the A version is only going to have 120 rounds. Which is three seconds worth of ammo.
    - engi_nerd 10y ago
      180 rounds for the A variant gun. Doesn't impact your point at all, just advising on the correct number.
- the_ancient 10y ago
  Yea, they are producing a non-functional aircraft, that under preforms, and can not keep pace with aircraft 20 years older than it... Yea USAF.... the F35 is terrible plane...
novembermike 10y ago
It would probably cost more to start up the A-10 lines again than finish up the F35. There's a lot of tribal knowledge that goes into building an airframe and most of it has been lost for the A-10. You'd pretty much have to start from scratch.
- gherkin0 10y ago
  > It would probably cost more to start up the A-10 lines again than finish up the F35. It's not just about cost of the platform, but also the capabilities provided by it. So even if the F35 is "finished" it won't necessarily fill the void left by the A-10, so more A-10s might be a better investment. From what I understand, the F35 did not gain effectiveness in proportion to its cost.
gozur88 10y ago
It's pretty difficult to call an aircraft "vaporware" when over 100 are in service at this point.
engi_nerd 10y ago
There are over 100 F-35 aircraft in existence right now. You might not like the program, but calling it "vaporware" is just flat out wrong.

adamson 10y ago

Huh? F-35s are in production

bpodgursky 10y ago
F-35s will not be able to fire their cannons until the 2020's (last I checked), because the software has not been written.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  2019 That said, the decision to declare Initial Operating Capacity with a software load that only has 89% of the aircraft's functionality is some politicized bullshit by the USAF.
- mikeash 10y ago
  That must be one fancy-pants cannon if it takes three years to write the software to drive it. How is that even possible?
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    Cannons have substantially nastier failure modes than the latest Twitter clone, and as such have much longer software development and testing cycles. A look into a similar process with NASA: http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff
    - mikeash 10y ago
      My incredulity is not because I think it's easy to write reliable software, but because a cannon shouldn't need more than "if button then fire." From the other reply, apparently it's way more complex than that though.
      - engi_nerd 10y ago
        Additional complexity comes from the F-35's Stores Management System (SMS). In addition to the basic accounting tasks of keeping track of what kinds of weapons are loaded, and on which stations, the SMS keeps track of how much the stores at each station weigh and provides that information to the flight control system (FLCS). FLCS can then compensate for the weight distribution of the stores. The gun must integrate with the SMS. http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/TuesdayLandmarkADougHayward.pdf http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/TuesdayLandmarkADougHa... for some more information.
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Because you don't engage manually any more. As I pointed out in above, the A (air superiority) version has only 120 rounds of ammo, which is three seconds worth. If you're using the gun you tell the computer "I want to shoot that guy", at which point you try to get him onto the pip on your display, which is going to move around depending on your relative velocity and distance. The computer actually fires the gun when it decides the round will hit. If you had to do it manually you'd most likely run out of ammo before you hit anything. The air-to-ground system is similar. So the software isn't just firing the gun. It's integrating data from all its sensors to figure out when to fire based on what you're trying to hit. I assume they have cut-outs friendlies as well, so you don't accidentally shoot your wingman.
- gozur88 10y ago
  Because the cannon is useless. It's only there because every time you point out it's useless people start yammering about the F-4, a plane that came out five decades ago. Even when the gun is working, the A version is only going to have 120 rounds. Which is three seconds worth of ammo.
  - engi_nerd 10y ago
    180 rounds for the A variant gun. Doesn't impact your point at all, just advising on the correct number.
the_ancient 10y ago
Yea, they are producing a non-functional aircraft, that under preforms, and can not keep pace with aircraft 20 years older than it... Yea USAF.... the F35 is terrible plane...

novembermike 10y ago

It would probably cost more to start up the A-10 lines again than finish up the F35. There's a lot of tribal knowledge that goes into building an airframe and most of it has been lost for the A-10. You'd pretty much have to start from scratch.

gherkin0 10y ago
> It would probably cost more to start up the A-10 lines again than finish up the F35. It's not just about cost of the platform, but also the capabilities provided by it. So even if the F35 is "finished" it won't necessarily fill the void left by the A-10, so more A-10s might be a better investment. From what I understand, the F35 did not gain effectiveness in proportion to its cost.

gozur88 10y ago

It's pretty difficult to call an aircraft "vaporware" when over 100 are in service at this point.

engi_nerd 10y ago

There are over 100 F-35 aircraft in existence right now. You might not like the program, but calling it "vaporware" is just flat out wrong.