5 ms·

Con: you'll have to use vendor chargers. Pro: you won't be able to use these: http://www.righto.com/2016/03/counterfeit-macbook-charger-teardown.html http://w

Con: you'll have to use vendor chargers. Pro: you won't be able to use these: http://www.righto.com/2016/03/counterfeit-macbook-charger-teardown.html http://www.righto.com/2016/03/counterfeit-macbook-charger-te... or their moral equivalent http://www.righto.com/2012/03/inside-cheap-phone-charger-and-why-you.html http://www.righto.com/2012/03/inside-cheap-phone-charger-and... http://www.instructables.com/answers/240V-Power-Socket-with-USB-outlets-leaks-currentno/ http://www.instructables.com/answers/240V-Power-Socket-with-... http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/06/please-dont-buy-cheap-phone-chargers-and-cables/ http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/06/please-dont-buy-cheap-phon... ... it's not as simple as "big bad charger conspiracy" - scummy manufacturers really are putting out deathtraps out there, and a protocol protection to convince you not to keep using them makes sense.

mihn 11y ago
Dude its Universal Serial Bus for a reason and this just defies this reason.
- masklinn 11y ago
  That the underlying bus is universal does not mean all device pairs must work (that already isn't the case).
  - izacus 11y ago
    Yes it means exactly that. Otherwise it fails as a user friendly connecting standard.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      > Yes it means exactly that. No, it does not now, and it never has at any point in the past.
- SixSigma 11y ago
  > Universal Serial Bus It's not Universal It's not Serial And it's not a Bus gg Intel
gcb0 11y ago
just because you want a paid walled garden doesn't make it less of a business conspiracy. it is what it is. you're giving away freedom to buy a better brand than oem or to build your own, just to be protected against buying a cheap charger that you probably know before hand on price alone that it's counterfeit. pretty sure the funding father's had a saying for that situation...
striking 11y ago
It doesn't make sense to require authentication on chargers, because then either only a small elite group can make chargers and charge insane prices, or everyone can make a charger after licensing the authentication procedure and then we're back at square one. It doesn't solve the problem, it moves the stupid somewhere else.
- f_allwein 11y ago
  well, there is a growing problem around counterfeit chargers and there are good reasons to use (more expensive) original ones - see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 So it makes sense to regulate chargers somehow. Not sure if this is the best solution, but if we can prevent the small elite group from charging insane prices, that could work.
- f_allwein 11y ago
  well, there is a growing problem around counterfeit chargers and there are good reasons to use (more expensive) original ones - see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 So it makes sense to regulate chargers somehow. Not sure if this is the best solution, but if we can prevent the small elite group from charging insane prices, that could work.
- foota 11y ago
  Not necessarily, the certification could involve testing, similar to how I believe wifi certification works.
- MichaelBurge 11y ago
  If you have an authentication procedure, you can do things like force the manufacturer to put down a security deposit, do background checks on the applying company to make sure they have history, or force him to undergo some kind of standardized testing on the product. It doesn't help on a technical level, but helps on a social one. Game consoles historically have done all of these: You have to spend tens of thousands on a developer kit, they often prefer to see companies with a history, and they review your game before they allow you to sell it. I think all of these do help increase the quality. The negative of course is that you end up with a walled garden.
evincarofautumn 11y ago
What’s sad is that even when the designers consider proper isolation, shoddy manufacturing and components can quickly undo their efforts, causing a short that leads to injury to devices and humans.
Mchl 11y ago
Con: I can't use a charger I made on my own.
pygy_ 11y ago
But you won't be able to use good chargers interchangeably. If you travel with two phones of different brands, you'll need to bring both chargers as well.
- Aissen 11y ago
  We don't know that yet, they could just hand out keys with a PKI handled by a third party, once the device and manufacturing process are validated. But: it will cost money, and someone will have to foot the bill. USB is one of the most open and universal standards out there, and it is sad that is has come to this, since it could be needed for safety (the amount of power it manages is no longer negligible).
AnthonyMouse 11y ago
> ... it's not as simple as "big bad charger conspiracy" - scummy manufacturers really are putting out deathtraps out there, and a protocol protection to convince you not to keep using them makes sense. Isn't this what trademark law is all about? Buy from a reputable manufacturer. I also seem to remember something about consumer protection laws, so maybe the people who make the things that catch on fire should be bankrupt or in jail. It's not like this is the first time anything like this has ever happened.
- pilsetnieks 11y ago
  > I also seem to remember something about consumer protection laws, so maybe the people who make the things that catch on fire should be bankrupt or in jail. People who make (or sell) those things might be in a completely different jurisdiction that is not bound by your consumer protection laws.
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    Which could put the liability on the people who are importing/selling them. Or, if it's literally end customers buying directly from foreign countries, caveat emptor and you should buy from somebody in a country with functioning consumer protection laws, in much the same as it is if you travel to abroad and bring some lead paint choking fire hazard back with you.
- legulere 11y ago
  That's what I also thought. Then I wanted to order Apple Earpods from Amazon.de and decided that it's impossible. If something is more or less easily fakeable and enough of it is sold, then there will be fakes out there and it will find its way to the customer through normal retail.
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    The problem actually seems to be that it will find its way to the customer through Amazon. Are they selling Apple-branded fake ones at Walmart?
unicornporn 11y ago
I ordered one of these $2 USB 3 Type-C to USB 3 Type-A cables from eBay so I could transfer files from my Nexus 5X to my MacBook. Since these stories started popping up I just placed it in a drawer. It has no wall socket adapter and I wonder if it's safe to use for the phone if I just connect it to the computer. Seems the computer USB port shouldn't be able to feed enough power to hurt the phone. True?
- ploxiln 11y ago
  In this case, the problem is not how much power the computer "feeds" to the phone, the problem is how much amperage the phone draws from the computer. The bad Type-C cable can be incorrectly configured to indicate to the phone that the Type-A computer end can provide more amps than it actually can, and then the phone will provide less effective resistance across the 5v power wires than is appropriate. In this case it's more likely to damage the USB port on the computer. It's also theoretically possible that this cheap cable could be wired very wrong and short some power wires itself. But there was, like, only one cable people have found on amazon that was that ridiculous ...
- jeeva 11y ago
  False, possibly: https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_p...
- bipson 11y ago
  IIRC its the other way round: your phone will not realize it is actually being plugged into a USB Type-A port, which might not be able to (safely) supply the current a USB 3 Type-C port potentially would allow. This is done by terminating a certain pin of the cable with a respective resistor, while USB Type A has no such pin and such a cable must thus by default terminate to 56kOhm. If now the cable does _not_ terminate, the phone might think it can draw way more power than the PCs slot can safely deliver, thus frying your PC port. The phone is not the problem.
coroutines 11y ago
I think if I were using Linux I'd prefer an option I can specify in modprobe.d to disable signature verification for the kernel module handling this (at my discretion). Or would this be at like layer 7? :>
giancarlostoro 11y ago
But then I can't use Anker's chargers either? Anker has done me the good that most alternatives fail to accomplish for me. Also what about those lovely portable chargers? All useless now? :)
falcolas 11y ago
However it won't stop bad chargers from pumping 220v and full outlet amperage over the USB, and completely frying your device anyways.
bubuga 11y ago
> Con: you'll have to use vendor chargers. > > Pro: you won't be able to use these: The con (which is really a con) represents a restriction to your freedom of choice and, ultimately, the creation of a monopoly. The pro, on the other hand, is irrelevant. If you wish to risk your gear connecting crap components to it, feel free to do so. What I want is the ability to actually buy and use a component without being strong-armed by the manufacturer to comply with their price-gouging. If risking having to brick the product I bought with my own cash if I intentionally purchase crap chinese knock-offs then that is the price to pay, and a price that I'm willing to pay.

mihn 11y ago

Dude its Universal Serial Bus for a reason and this just defies this reason.

masklinn 11y ago
That the underlying bus is universal does not mean all device pairs must work (that already isn't the case).
- izacus 11y ago
  Yes it means exactly that. Otherwise it fails as a user friendly connecting standard.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    > Yes it means exactly that. No, it does not now, and it never has at any point in the past.
SixSigma 11y ago
> Universal Serial Bus It's not Universal It's not Serial And it's not a Bus gg Intel

gcb0 11y ago

just because you want a paid walled garden doesn't make it less of a business conspiracy. it is what it is. you're giving away freedom to buy a better brand than oem or to build your own, just to be protected against buying a cheap charger that you probably know before hand on price alone that it's counterfeit. pretty sure the funding father's had a saying for that situation...

striking 11y ago

It doesn't make sense to require authentication on chargers, because then either only a small elite group can make chargers and charge insane prices, or everyone can make a charger after licensing the authentication procedure and then we're back at square one. It doesn't solve the problem, it moves the stupid somewhere else.

f_allwein 11y ago
well, there is a growing problem around counterfeit chargers and there are good reasons to use (more expensive) original ones - see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 So it makes sense to regulate chargers somehow. Not sure if this is the best solution, but if we can prevent the small elite group from charging insane prices, that could work.
f_allwein 11y ago
well, there is a growing problem around counterfeit chargers and there are good reasons to use (more expensive) original ones - see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11325150 So it makes sense to regulate chargers somehow. Not sure if this is the best solution, but if we can prevent the small elite group from charging insane prices, that could work.
foota 11y ago
Not necessarily, the certification could involve testing, similar to how I believe wifi certification works.
MichaelBurge 11y ago
If you have an authentication procedure, you can do things like force the manufacturer to put down a security deposit, do background checks on the applying company to make sure they have history, or force him to undergo some kind of standardized testing on the product. It doesn't help on a technical level, but helps on a social one. Game consoles historically have done all of these: You have to spend tens of thousands on a developer kit, they often prefer to see companies with a history, and they review your game before they allow you to sell it. I think all of these do help increase the quality. The negative of course is that you end up with a walled garden.

evincarofautumn 11y ago

What’s sad is that even when the designers consider proper isolation, shoddy manufacturing and components can quickly undo their efforts, causing a short that leads to injury to devices and humans.

Mchl 11y ago

Con: I can't use a charger I made on my own.

pygy_ 11y ago

But you won't be able to use good chargers interchangeably. If you travel with two phones of different brands, you'll need to bring both chargers as well.

Aissen 11y ago
We don't know that yet, they could just hand out keys with a PKI handled by a third party, once the device and manufacturing process are validated. But: it will cost money, and someone will have to foot the bill. USB is one of the most open and universal standards out there, and it is sad that is has come to this, since it could be needed for safety (the amount of power it manages is no longer negligible).

AnthonyMouse 11y ago

> ... it's not as simple as "big bad charger conspiracy" - scummy manufacturers really are putting out deathtraps out there, and a protocol protection to convince you not to keep using them makes sense. Isn't this what trademark law is all about? Buy from a reputable manufacturer. I also seem to remember something about consumer protection laws, so maybe the people who make the things that catch on fire should be bankrupt or in jail. It's not like this is the first time anything like this has ever happened.

pilsetnieks 11y ago
> I also seem to remember something about consumer protection laws, so maybe the people who make the things that catch on fire should be bankrupt or in jail. People who make (or sell) those things might be in a completely different jurisdiction that is not bound by your consumer protection laws.
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  Which could put the liability on the people who are importing/selling them. Or, if it's literally end customers buying directly from foreign countries, caveat emptor and you should buy from somebody in a country with functioning consumer protection laws, in much the same as it is if you travel to abroad and bring some lead paint choking fire hazard back with you.
legulere 11y ago
That's what I also thought. Then I wanted to order Apple Earpods from Amazon.de and decided that it's impossible. If something is more or less easily fakeable and enough of it is sold, then there will be fakes out there and it will find its way to the customer through normal retail.
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  The problem actually seems to be that it will find its way to the customer through Amazon. Are they selling Apple-branded fake ones at Walmart?

unicornporn 11y ago

I ordered one of these $2 USB 3 Type-C to USB 3 Type-A cables from eBay so I could transfer files from my Nexus 5X to my MacBook. Since these stories started popping up I just placed it in a drawer. It has no wall socket adapter and I wonder if it's safe to use for the phone if I just connect it to the computer. Seems the computer USB port shouldn't be able to feed enough power to hurt the phone. True?

ploxiln 11y ago
In this case, the problem is not how much power the computer "feeds" to the phone, the problem is how much amperage the phone draws from the computer. The bad Type-C cable can be incorrectly configured to indicate to the phone that the Type-A computer end can provide more amps than it actually can, and then the phone will provide less effective resistance across the 5v power wires than is appropriate. In this case it's more likely to damage the USB port on the computer. It's also theoretically possible that this cheap cable could be wired very wrong and short some power wires itself. But there was, like, only one cable people have found on amazon that was that ridiculous ...
jeeva 11y ago
False, possibly: https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_p...
bipson 11y ago
IIRC its the other way round: your phone will not realize it is actually being plugged into a USB Type-A port, which might not be able to (safely) supply the current a USB 3 Type-C port potentially would allow. This is done by terminating a certain pin of the cable with a respective resistor, while USB Type A has no such pin and such a cable must thus by default terminate to 56kOhm. If now the cable does _not_ terminate, the phone might think it can draw way more power than the PCs slot can safely deliver, thus frying your PC port. The phone is not the problem.

coroutines 11y ago

I think if I were using Linux I'd prefer an option I can specify in modprobe.d to disable signature verification for the kernel module handling this (at my discretion). Or would this be at like layer 7? :>

giancarlostoro 11y ago

But then I can't use Anker's chargers either? Anker has done me the good that most alternatives fail to accomplish for me. Also what about those lovely portable chargers? All useless now? :)

falcolas 11y ago

However it won't stop bad chargers from pumping 220v and full outlet amperage over the USB, and completely frying your device anyways.

bubuga 11y ago

> Con: you'll have to use vendor chargers. > > Pro: you won't be able to use these: The con (which is really a con) represents a restriction to your freedom of choice and, ultimately, the creation of a monopoly. The pro, on the other hand, is irrelevant. If you wish to risk your gear connecting crap components to it, feel free to do so. What I want is the ability to actually buy and use a component without being strong-armed by the manufacturer to comply with their price-gouging. If risking having to brick the product I bought with my own cash if I intentionally purchase crap chinese knock-offs then that is the price to pay, and a price that I'm willing to pay.