10 ms·

Ummm, no. VS Code is a decent editor, nothing more. It certainly doesn't transform the way code is written on Unix/Linux. Vim and Emacs are still superior if

by Mikeb85 11y ago

Ummm, no. VS Code is a decent editor, nothing more. It certainly doesn't transform the way code is written on Unix/Linux. Vim and Emacs are still superior if you want to put the time in, and both have non-terminal interfaces. They can also be both customized to be whatever you want them to be, there's not really a limit to their functionality except what plugins are already written. Ditto for Atom, though of course, it does seem to be more web based for the moment (though Atom does have great plugins for Go, Nim, and I'm sure a bunch of other languages). In the grand scheme of things, tools like compilers, debuggers, interpreters, other command line tools (like completion servers), etc..., matter more than editors anyway. Edit - for the record, VS Code seems great. But it's not revolutionary.

thewhitetulip 11y ago
That's what, gone are the days when we'd spend hours and hours to learn the little little ways of vi and the myriad functions in emacs. Now we need to get things done, can't afford to sit down and study the entire functions of vi and emacs. I don't mean to troll but after switching to vscode and the go plugin I learned go webdev and wrote this small intro book, http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook/ http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook... That is the power of vscode, it provided a good enough way to play with code, yes not outright innovation, but an awesome text editor nonetheless.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  Atom has a great Go plugin: linting, context aware completion, fixes code style on save, etc..., all powered by Go's command line tools. I'm not saying Vim and Emacs are the be-all (I program mostly in R, so RStudio is my main tool), only that VS Code hasn't changed anything fundamentally. It's just a good editor.
  - jagger27 11y ago
    Sublime Text has GoSublime as well.
- eropple 11y ago
  What, exactly and without sweeping generalities, does it do that is a transformative step over Sublime Text or Atom? Or, hell, even Kate?
  - jhasse 11y ago
    For example the Git integration is awesome and even better than Atom's (you can commit, push, ...). Of course you can do a lot with extensions, but at least in Atom's case they break a lot for me.
    - eropple 11y ago
      Well, okay, let's talk about that. Is having source control in your text editor enough of a benefit to one's daily routine as to be a step change of productivity or quality of life? It may be for you and I'm not saying you're wrong for that, I'm asking because it isn't for me; I have an alt and a tab key. Bear in mind that the claim wasn't that it's better in some ways, but that it's sweepingly better than the stuff that came before (and Atom wasn't even mentioned by the OP, which is funny--I mean, I don't use it, but it's obviously in the conversation).
      - jhasse 11y ago
        Having the git diff in your editor gives you syntax highlighting and let's you edit it (the right side) like you're used to. I guess the killer feature of VS Code is multiple cursors (Ctrl+D). I only know of Sublime Text and Atom who also have this feature on Linux, not sure about Kate. Sublime Text is closed source and not gratis, Atom is slow and buggy.
        Skinney 11y ago
        Emacs and Vim also have multiple cursors.
        jhasse 11y ago
        Built-in? What is the equivalent of Ctrl+D (Sublime Text, Atom and VS Code) in vim and emacs?
pknerd 11y ago
>Vim and Emacs are still superior if you want to put the time >in, TBH, not every developer is willing to become a power user or interested to learn an IDE instead of the language itself. Being someone who worked on VStudio alot and now on Linux/Mac based tools, I can safely say that Microsoft tools are Developers friendly most of the time. It's good they are introducing same touch for Linux/OSX community.
- coliveira 11y ago
  That is fine, I think it is great that IDEs exist for easy editing and debugging. But power users will always exist in the programming community. These people will naturally use Vim and Emacs because they support the customization levels needed for complex programming workflows.
  - mwfunk 11y ago
    In my experience novices have an easier time learning programming with an intuitive IDE, but experienced users use whatever makes the most sense given the task at hand, which in many cases might also be an IDE. They're just different tools with different pros and cons, and each of those pros and cons are weighted differently depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Very few programming workflows are so complicated that it is simply not possible to do something without first creating your own highly customized environment within Emacs. However, very, very many programmers do have a lot more fun screwing around with customizing their work environment (editor, window manager, shell, etc.) than using that environment to get actual work done (myself included). Which is not to say that Vim and Emacs aren't awesome tools, I just wouldn't generalize anything about anyone based on the tools they use.
    - aldanor 11y ago
      One thing that is not immediately obvious about vim (or evil Emacs) is the gamification part. Before I switched to Spacemacs myself, I used to think -- why do those vim guys torture themselves using an old deprecated tool. Now I actually find it fun to edit text or code and think of how much everyone else is missing :)
thewhitetulip 11y ago
What I meant was that if you don't have the time or inclination to learn the myriad ways of vi and emacs, there isn't a really great light weight fast text editor, eclipse is too damn slow. so beyond eclipse, there is this great text editor which has great design. we never had the great ctrl+P option in eclipse as far as i can remember where you can jump to definitions, say I have a 100 files project and I want to change the GetUseFunction then I ctrl+P and type the function names, it tells me all the function names and lets me go to the function name directly. I am not aware if that feature is available in other editors, I tried light table for a short time, but it isn't getting much attention since they are working on some other product. ctrl +P transformed the way i write go code, now I dont' have to bother to remember which file stored what, just ctrl +P function name, as i know what all functions I am using or I can just scroll!
- Skinney 11y ago
  Ctrl+P was taken from Sublime, which in turn took that from TextMate. I think. VSCode and Atom are essentially just Sublime Text with Javascript instead of Python as the plugin language. Also, IntelliJ has had this for quite some time, though it doesn't meet the criteria for light weight text editor, it is certainly better than Eclipse.
zoeysaurusrex 11y ago
"Vim and Emacs are still superior if you want to put the time in, and both have non-terminal interfaces." I don't need an instruction manual to figure out how to close VSCode.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  >> and both have non-terminal interfaces. > I don't need an instruction manual to figure out how to close VSCode. To close GVim, you click the 'x' in the upper right/left corner, like any other window.
  - aldanor 11y ago
    To close the GUI Emacs, you may just click the X as well.
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      True, how did I forget?
  - JoBrad 11y ago
    And how do you install extensions for GVim?
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      You put extensions into the proper folder, or use a tool like 'Vundle'. Yes it's slightly more difficult than using Atom, but anyone who can use a tool like Git or Cmake should have no problems figuring it out.
  - Skinney 11y ago
    In Vim, pressing Ctrl-C (which is how you usually terminate a console application) tells you to write :quit<enter>. Alternatively, you could just close the terminal window.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
dimgl 11y ago
While I do agree that VS Code is nothing revolutionary, suggesting Vim and Emacs are superior at this day and age makes no sense. Becoming effective at using these editors is very hard and not practical when there are so many other things any engineer worth their salt has to worry about. Most plugin systems for these tools are a nightmare. Vim has about three or four different plugin solutions and they all have different caveats.
- Skinney 11y ago
  While I agree with regards to Vim, I don't really see how Emacs is hard and impractical. It doesn't have modal editing, you just open a file and write, and the plugin system is built-in. I do, however, agree with you. Mostly because you can customize Atom and VSCode to have all the same benefits as Emacs and Vim. Except for running them in the console, which I know some people like having the option of doing.
mastazi 11y ago
> Vim and Emacs are still superior I think the parent was talking about modern text editors such as Sublime, Atom, Brackets etc.; Vim and Emacs are completely different beasts (note: I love both). Within the category of modern text editors, VS Code is in my opinion revolutionary in several ways - I will give you three examples The first feature that I find "disruptive" is the way VS Code offers a standardised interface for debuggers, hence debugger plugins are much easier to create - and you can see that VS Code already has debugger plugins available for many languages: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/vscode/Debuggers?sortBy=Downloads https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/vscode/Debuggers?sortBy... the availability of such plugins for Atom and Sublime Text is not nearly as good. The second aspect where VS Code changed the game is the clever way it leverages Electron (the framework it's made with, Atom is made with Electron too) - while creating clever workarounds to known Electron bugs - e.g. VS Code, unlike Atom, does not suffer from this bug https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/10720 https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/10720 The third aspect is the git integration - since Atom is sponsored by Github, you would think it has the best git integration out there - but VS Code has gone the extra mile by giving you a great user-friendly UI interface for staging and committing (yeah, I know, anything more complicated than git add -A requires the command line - the fact is that nearly 50% of all the git commands I type are git add -A, LOL). PPS I totally agree with you about the importance of tooling. But e.g. if you have a debugger that does not have an interface to your editor it becomes hard to set breakpoints. So the editor needs to integrate with your tools and VS Code is great at that.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
I used emacs as my primary editor for 22 years but switched to clion last year for c/c++ development and am thinking of switching to pycharm for python stuff. I still use emacs for quick editing, moderately complex search-and-replace in limited numbers of files (for when I don't want to bother with perl), and a handy scratchpad for throwaway things, but I don't intend to do a lot more software development in it anymore.
KirinDave 11y ago
So, as a 20 year user of emacs with a .emacs file older than some people who post here: I have moved away from both. I like being able to use other languages for editor extension, having a competent graphical and text layout layer with image support, and quite frankly I find emacs development tedious now. So... Do I need a few more years of time to "get it?"
venomsnake 11y ago
Compared to Vim's learning curve, the Wall from GoT is just a small speed bump. I have tried to learn vim for 10 years now and just cannot get past the initial stages.

by Mikeb85 11y ago

thewhitetulip 11y ago

That's what, gone are the days when we'd spend hours and hours to learn the little little ways of vi and the myriad functions in emacs. Now we need to get things done, can't afford to sit down and study the entire functions of vi and emacs. I don't mean to troll but after switching to vscode and the go plugin I learned go webdev and wrote this small intro book, http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook/ http://github.com/thewhitetulip/web-dev-golang-anti-textbook... That is the power of vscode, it provided a good enough way to play with code, yes not outright innovation, but an awesome text editor nonetheless.

Mikeb85 11y ago
Atom has a great Go plugin: linting, context aware completion, fixes code style on save, etc..., all powered by Go's command line tools. I'm not saying Vim and Emacs are the be-all (I program mostly in R, so RStudio is my main tool), only that VS Code hasn't changed anything fundamentally. It's just a good editor.
- jagger27 11y ago
  Sublime Text has GoSublime as well.
eropple 11y ago
What, exactly and without sweeping generalities, does it do that is a transformative step over Sublime Text or Atom? Or, hell, even Kate?
- jhasse 11y ago
  For example the Git integration is awesome and even better than Atom's (you can commit, push, ...). Of course you can do a lot with extensions, but at least in Atom's case they break a lot for me.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Well, okay, let's talk about that. Is having source control in your text editor enough of a benefit to one's daily routine as to be a step change of productivity or quality of life? It may be for you and I'm not saying you're wrong for that, I'm asking because it isn't for me; I have an alt and a tab key. Bear in mind that the claim wasn't that it's better in some ways, but that it's sweepingly better than the stuff that came before (and Atom wasn't even mentioned by the OP, which is funny--I mean, I don't use it, but it's obviously in the conversation).
    - jhasse 11y ago
      Having the git diff in your editor gives you syntax highlighting and let's you edit it (the right side) like you're used to. I guess the killer feature of VS Code is multiple cursors (Ctrl+D). I only know of Sublime Text and Atom who also have this feature on Linux, not sure about Kate. Sublime Text is closed source and not gratis, Atom is slow and buggy.
      - Skinney 11y ago
        Emacs and Vim also have multiple cursors.
        jhasse 11y ago
        Built-in? What is the equivalent of Ctrl+D (Sublime Text, Atom and VS Code) in vim and emacs?

pknerd 11y ago

>Vim and Emacs are still superior if you want to put the time >in, TBH, not every developer is willing to become a power user or interested to learn an IDE instead of the language itself. Being someone who worked on VStudio alot and now on Linux/Mac based tools, I can safely say that Microsoft tools are Developers friendly most of the time. It's good they are introducing same touch for Linux/OSX community.

coliveira 11y ago
That is fine, I think it is great that IDEs exist for easy editing and debugging. But power users will always exist in the programming community. These people will naturally use Vim and Emacs because they support the customization levels needed for complex programming workflows.
- mwfunk 11y ago
  In my experience novices have an easier time learning programming with an intuitive IDE, but experienced users use whatever makes the most sense given the task at hand, which in many cases might also be an IDE. They're just different tools with different pros and cons, and each of those pros and cons are weighted differently depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Very few programming workflows are so complicated that it is simply not possible to do something without first creating your own highly customized environment within Emacs. However, very, very many programmers do have a lot more fun screwing around with customizing their work environment (editor, window manager, shell, etc.) than using that environment to get actual work done (myself included). Which is not to say that Vim and Emacs aren't awesome tools, I just wouldn't generalize anything about anyone based on the tools they use.
  - aldanor 11y ago
    One thing that is not immediately obvious about vim (or evil Emacs) is the gamification part. Before I switched to Spacemacs myself, I used to think -- why do those vim guys torture themselves using an old deprecated tool. Now I actually find it fun to edit text or code and think of how much everyone else is missing :)

thewhitetulip 11y ago

What I meant was that if you don't have the time or inclination to learn the myriad ways of vi and emacs, there isn't a really great light weight fast text editor, eclipse is too damn slow. so beyond eclipse, there is this great text editor which has great design. we never had the great ctrl+P option in eclipse as far as i can remember where you can jump to definitions, say I have a 100 files project and I want to change the GetUseFunction then I ctrl+P and type the function names, it tells me all the function names and lets me go to the function name directly. I am not aware if that feature is available in other editors, I tried light table for a short time, but it isn't getting much attention since they are working on some other product. ctrl +P transformed the way i write go code, now I dont' have to bother to remember which file stored what, just ctrl +P function name, as i know what all functions I am using or I can just scroll!

Skinney 11y ago
Ctrl+P was taken from Sublime, which in turn took that from TextMate. I think. VSCode and Atom are essentially just Sublime Text with Javascript instead of Python as the plugin language. Also, IntelliJ has had this for quite some time, though it doesn't meet the criteria for light weight text editor, it is certainly better than Eclipse.

zoeysaurusrex 11y ago

"Vim and Emacs are still superior if you want to put the time in, and both have non-terminal interfaces." I don't need an instruction manual to figure out how to close VSCode.

Mikeb85 11y ago
>> and both have non-terminal interfaces. > I don't need an instruction manual to figure out how to close VSCode. To close GVim, you click the 'x' in the upper right/left corner, like any other window.
- aldanor 11y ago
  To close the GUI Emacs, you may just click the X as well.
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    True, how did I forget?
- JoBrad 11y ago
  And how do you install extensions for GVim?
  - Mikeb85 11y ago
    You put extensions into the proper folder, or use a tool like 'Vundle'. Yes it's slightly more difficult than using Atom, but anyone who can use a tool like Git or Cmake should have no problems figuring it out.
- Skinney 11y ago
  In Vim, pressing Ctrl-C (which is how you usually terminate a console application) tells you to write :quit<enter>. Alternatively, you could just close the terminal window.
TeMPOraL 11y ago

dimgl 11y ago

While I do agree that VS Code is nothing revolutionary, suggesting Vim and Emacs are superior at this day and age makes no sense. Becoming effective at using these editors is very hard and not practical when there are so many other things any engineer worth their salt has to worry about. Most plugin systems for these tools are a nightmare. Vim has about three or four different plugin solutions and they all have different caveats.

Skinney 11y ago
While I agree with regards to Vim, I don't really see how Emacs is hard and impractical. It doesn't have modal editing, you just open a file and write, and the plugin system is built-in. I do, however, agree with you. Mostly because you can customize Atom and VSCode to have all the same benefits as Emacs and Vim. Except for running them in the console, which I know some people like having the option of doing.

mastazi 11y ago

> Vim and Emacs are still superior I think the parent was talking about modern text editors such as Sublime, Atom, Brackets etc.; Vim and Emacs are completely different beasts (note: I love both). Within the category of modern text editors, VS Code is in my opinion revolutionary in several ways - I will give you three examples The first feature that I find "disruptive" is the way VS Code offers a standardised interface for debuggers, hence debugger plugins are much easier to create - and you can see that VS Code already has debugger plugins available for many languages: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/vscode/Debuggers?sortBy=Downloads https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/vscode/Debuggers?sortBy... the availability of such plugins for Atom and Sublime Text is not nearly as good. The second aspect where VS Code changed the game is the clever way it leverages Electron (the framework it's made with, Atom is made with Electron too) - while creating clever workarounds to known Electron bugs - e.g. VS Code, unlike Atom, does not suffer from this bug https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/10720 https://github.com/atom/atom/issues/10720 The third aspect is the git integration - since Atom is sponsored by Github, you would think it has the best git integration out there - but VS Code has gone the extra mile by giving you a great user-friendly UI interface for staging and committing (yeah, I know, anything more complicated than git add -A requires the command line - the fact is that nearly 50% of all the git commands I type are git add -A, LOL). PPS I totally agree with you about the importance of tooling. But e.g. if you have a debugger that does not have an interface to your editor it becomes hard to set breakpoints. So the editor needs to integrate with your tools and VS Code is great at that.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

I used emacs as my primary editor for 22 years but switched to clion last year for c/c++ development and am thinking of switching to pycharm for python stuff. I still use emacs for quick editing, moderately complex search-and-replace in limited numbers of files (for when I don't want to bother with perl), and a handy scratchpad for throwaway things, but I don't intend to do a lot more software development in it anymore.

KirinDave 11y ago

So, as a 20 year user of emacs with a .emacs file older than some people who post here: I have moved away from both. I like being able to use other languages for editor extension, having a competent graphical and text layout layer with image support, and quite frankly I find emacs development tedious now. So... Do I need a few more years of time to "get it?"

venomsnake 11y ago

Compared to Vim's learning curve, the Wall from GoT is just a small speed bump. I have tried to learn vim for 10 years now and just cannot get past the initial stages.