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Should a Copyright Infringer Pay $21 or $675,000 for Downloading 30 Songs?
- protomyth 17y agoLet's see, iTunes sells the songs for $1.29 (all new hits) so 30 songs would be $38.70. Now, you were bad and did something illegal so let's go for broke and say you need to pay 10x for being bad so you will not do it again. That gets us to a $387.00 fine. That would be a reasonable slap. $675,000 is some serious overstepping.
- vital101 17y agoI think that record labels would be far more successful getting money from people if they would bring suits of this size. Keep under a certain amount and it could even go to small claims court. A few people getting slapped with $675,000 in fines doesn't scare me, but 250,000 people getting $500 in fines might make me think twice because the odds of getting caught are higher.
- jsz0 17y agoA few labels are doing this. I think it's a fair approach. It ends up being about $10 per song. I don't think they even make you delete the files -- just stop sharing them. You're basically just paying a 10x premium/penalty for obtaining them in an illicit way. Here's what it looks like: NOTE TO ISP: PLEASE FORWARD THE ENTIRE NOTICE Re: Unauthorized Use of Copyrights Owned Exclusively by the Zappa Family Trust Reference#: XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX PST Dear Sir or Madam: FFS Enterprises, LLC ('We') represent the following 'copyright owner(s)' The Zappa Family Trust ('ZFT') by agency agreement. ZFT are the exclusive owners of copyrights for Frank Zappa musical compositions, including the musical compositions listed below. It has come to our attention that {ISP Name} is the service provider for the IP address listed below, from which unauthorized copying and distribution (downloading, uploading, file serving, file 'swapping' or other similar activities) of ZFT's exclusive copyrights listed below is taking place. This unauthorized copying and distribution constitutes copyright infringement under the U.S. Copyright Act. Pursuant to 17 U.S.C. 512(c), this letter serves as actual notice of infringement. The ZFT will pursue every available remedy including injunctions and recovery of attorney's fees, costs and any and all other damages which are incurred by The ZFT as a result of any action that is commenced against you. Nothing contained or omitted from this letter is, or shall be deemed to be either a full statement of the facts or applicable law, an admission of any fact, or a waiver or limitation of any of The ZFT's rights or remedies, all of which are specifically retained and reserved. The information in this notification is accurate. We have a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of herein is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or by operation of law. I swear, under penalty of perjury, that I am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the exclusive rights that have been infringed. While The ZFT is entitled to monetary damages from the infringing party under 17 U.S.C. Section 504, The ZFT believes that it may be expeditious to settle this matter without the need of costly and time-consuming litigation. In order to help you avoid further legal action from The ZFT, we have been authorized to offer a settlement solution that we believe is reasonable for everyone. please copy and paste the URL below into a browser and follow the instructions for the settlement offer:
- windsurfer 17y agoIsn't that message copyright FFS Enterprise, and distributing it may be illegal?
- jsz0 17y agoProbably, yeah. If I was being critical of the policy I would be more concerned. I think it's actually a good alternative. All the information in there is public knowledge otherwise.
- jrockway 17y ago250,000 people getting $500 in fines might make me think twice because the odds of getting caught are higher That would actually cause people to stop pirating their music. And instead obtain different music, leaving the record companies with nothing.
- noonespecial 17y agoIn the Capitol Records case, the jury ordered Tenenbaum to pay $675,000 to several record companies for illegally downloading and distributing 30 of their songs. ##and distributing## There's a monstrous difference here that we should be working nonstop to educate people about. If we can't get people to understand the difference between simply downloading, and becoming part of the distribution network, we are never going to have a meaningful debate. Both sides will seem completely irrational to each other.
- Luc 17y agoI'm not sure this is the same case I have heard of before, but let's assume this person was torrenting some popular songs. How much does it matter that he was distributing and not just downloading, if there were hundreds of others seeding at the same time? Other downloaders would have been inconvenienced just very slightly by him not being there. Did his contribution lead to an appreciable number of extra downloads, or did it just help the same number of pirates download faster? With which I just mean to say that there are gradations in distribution...
- noonespecial 17y agoThat's actually so good I'm just going to repeat it: With which I just mean to say that there are gradations in distribution That's exactly what this whole thing is missing. No one has stopped to calculate what the impact (in monetary damages, even hypothetically on the download==lost sale metric) of a bittorrent client running for x days at home connection upload speed.
- chrisbolt 17y ago$675,000 divided by $1.29 comes out to 523,255 copies distributed, which is ludicrous.
- noonespecial 17y ago$38.70 is also ludicrous, but for the opposite reason. We can't get to the place where we start to ask "how many copies were reasonably distributed and what might the actual damage be?" until we clarify what the actual accusation is. To the typical user, who thinks that all that is in question is $40 worth of downloads, $20,000 and $200,000 are equally ridiculous damage demands.
- kevinh 17y agoAgreed. Someone should not have their life ruined for downloading (and distributing) a few songs for no profit. If the RIAA sued people like this, I would be fully in support of it. Of course, the problem is that they would probably lose money on each lawsuit.
- forinti 17y agoFor downloading, he should pay as much as a radio listener pays: nothing. For distributing, he should pay the same fees that radio stations pay.
- noonespecial 17y agoFor distributing, he should pay the same fees that radio stations pay. In other words, they should pay him!, preferably through a shell corporation.
- otto 17y agoActually radio stations pay licenses for rights to songs for satellite/internet radio, while music is sent to radio stations for free through promoters. I work at a small college radio station (http://kmnr.org http://kmnr.org) we have been working with SoundExchange to get licensing for internet broadcast in addition to our radio broadcast.
- eli 17y agoSo if I sell burned copies of a new CD on the street corner, I should only have to pay a radio license fee?
- benologist 17y agoI think they should make it $500 - $1,000 per song. It's enough to make people look at their huge song libraries and wonder if they should go legit, without it being so phenomenally huge it's just a meaningless number. The people who fantasize about how he should only have to pay $1 or w/e are delusional. Why would anyone ever buy music again if the worst case scenario is they might have to pay a buck a track one day. Punishments need to fit crimes and serve as a deterrent to others as well.
- sounddust 17y agoIt's absurd to claim that $5,000,000 is an appropriate punishment for having filled one's iPod with downloaded music. Let's be reasonable; the fine should not have anything to do with the volume of music downloaded, as people who download music often do so to sample, and delete afterwards (or they download a stuff that they don't even want, because it's free). Instead, the fine should be several times what the person would have likely been able to spend on music during the time that the download occurred, regardless of the number of songs involved (and of course, the songs should be deleted). For a high-school student, that fine could be $500 ($50 if he/she comes from a poor family). For a programmer making $60,000/year, that fine could be around $5-10k. For a rich person, the fine could be $50/song. People who are fined millions of dollars are usually people who have done atrocious things (like pushing drugs to schoolkids for years), not downloaded some songs for their iPod, 90% of which were downloaded to try out and wouldn't have been purchased anyway.
- benologist 17y agoIf you fill an entire iPod with pirated music then you deserve a sizable punishment. You're not owed and nor do you deserve gigabytes of music simply because you bought a device with the capacity to host that much. Your income and your ability to purchase whatever quantity of music legitimately also has no relationship with the storage capacity of your iPod. The other excuses you present are irrelevant too, if you downloaded the music then you downloaded it, it doesn't matter what happened next. There are free and legitimate ways to preview pretty much anything on the internet, you don't need to pirate an artist's entire catalog to see if you like that person. The only point I can agree on is making it 'comfortably excessive' relative to income, $500 means little johnny's not getting that car he's saving for, and $10k to us is as nice as prison sex. But I think that would naturally sort itself out - nobody's been held responsible for the full catalog of music they've pirated, it's always been at most up to dozens of tracks.
- mtarnovan 17y agoLet's put it like this: if I'm caught on a bus without a ticket ($ 5) would it be reasonable to be fined $50,000 ? There is more depth to this comparison than meets the eye, as naively both items (song and a bus ride) have zero marginal cost, and the rights have been violated in a fairly similar manner. (edit for clarification)