4 ms·

Are they though? Defining middle-class might be good as well. A decent home in some parts of Utah is 150-200K. Granted some parts are more expensive. And for a

Are they though? Defining middle-class might be good as well. A decent home in some parts of Utah is 150-200K. Granted some parts are more expensive. And for a college, BYU runs at about 2.5-3.5K a semester, not all that bad. I managed to work my way through most of college.

api 11y ago
But Utah is not on the coast, therefore "nothing happens there" and you can't advance your career (supposedly). The mega-prestige city where you "must be" phenomenon is a major driver here. It's really exploded since roughly 2000. Edit: I think the best way of seeing it is to look at where early PCs came from: MITS Altair: Albuquerque, NM Commodore 64: Philadelphia (metro), PA IBM PC: Miami / Boca Raton, FL CompuColor II (first color home PC): Norcross, GA TRS-80: Fort Worth, TX Apple II: Cupertino, CA Today every single one of those would be from San Francisco or Silicon Valley, because that's where You Have To Be. Seattle I suppose gets an honorary mention, but the rest of the world doesn't exist. The same thing has happened to varying degrees in other industries. Everything has super-concentrated in a handful of super-expensive mostly coastal cities. The rest of the country is a backwater falling into permanent depression.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Combined with the fact that, for certain demographics, if you can't walk out of your apartment to a hipster coffee shop, life is basically not worth living. (SF pricing issues admittedly extend to the entire Bay, but for many thriving cities, very high prices are mostly a near-in urban phenomenon.)
- ghaff 11y ago
  The minicomputer industry was more concentrated, especially around Boston (though also Silicon Valley with HP, Rochester MN for IBM and others I'm sure I'm forgetting) but, even then, they were pretty spread out over a fairly large greater metropolitan area and beyond. There are still a lot of tech companies outside of the Valley, including startups. But there's certainly a tendency to concentrate.
- mwcampbell 11y ago
  So how do we fix this?
  - api 11y ago
    I think it's concentration of capital more than anything else. You can do engineering or write code anywhere, but raising money is much easier in SF/SV than anywhere else.
    - mwcampbell 11y ago
      And why is raising money so important? Can't a lot of software businesses be bootstrapped?
      - api 11y ago
        Bootstrapped companies are at a huge disadvantage vs. funded companies. Funded companies can afford deeper longer-sighted investments and kamikaze growth-at-all-costs free/freemium strategies that bootstrappers cannot. The only huge growth companies to emerge as startups that I can think of that started with a paid product were companies with an unavoidable physical dimension like Uber and AirBnB.
ksenzee 11y ago
We BYU alumni have the advantage of an education that was massively subsidized, down to the point where you can actually afford to work your way through. State schools are supposed to do that too, but they don't anymore. That's why BYU is now near the top of the Forbes list of "Best Value Colleges" or whatever it is.
- swsieber 11y ago
  Right, but UVU is also not that expensive, ~3.5k a semester. I guess my point is class is still affordable if you are willing to get away a bit. Edit: These are meant to be example of cheapness in an area where I live. I don't think it's completely unique to this area. College does require planning ahead, and a year of living in a state and applying for residency can reduce the cost of college a great deal.
  - 0x5f3759df-i 11y ago
    Out of state tuition is much more expensive.
  - ksenzee 11y ago
    Some states aren't spending as much on higher ed as Utah. In Washington, where I live, in-state tuition averages ~$10k.
    - swsieber 11y ago
      Well, I do stand corrected then. Thanks :)
maxerickson 11y ago
For healthcare I think the circulation definition applies; that is, if you can't afford healthcare, you probably aren't middle class.
- codeddesign 11y ago
  That's a completely ridiculous and uneducated statement. Let's say you make $70k in a 3-person family (no subsidies), you pay $1,400 a month mortgage, $12,000 a year in health care premiums, and you have a $500 a month car loan. After taxes you have around $50,000. After mortgage you have roughly $33,000. After car payment you have $27,000. That gives you about $500 a week. Then you have cell phone, electricity, water, trash removal (some places), and then maybe cable. So...now you are down from $2k extra a month to $1,200 a month. If you want to eat, let's say $150 a week in groceries..you are now down to $600 a month...or $150 a week extra. Please tell me how the middle class can save any money, but a home, pay off debt, pay for college, go on vacation...etc. On just $150 a week extra, you could easy blow your monthly budget on buying everyone in the house shoes and then going out to eat 2 times a month.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    Could you explain what you think I meant?

api 11y ago

But Utah is not on the coast, therefore "nothing happens there" and you can't advance your career (supposedly). The mega-prestige city where you "must be" phenomenon is a major driver here. It's really exploded since roughly 2000. Edit: I think the best way of seeing it is to look at where early PCs came from: MITS Altair: Albuquerque, NM Commodore 64: Philadelphia (metro), PA IBM PC: Miami / Boca Raton, FL CompuColor II (first color home PC): Norcross, GA TRS-80: Fort Worth, TX Apple II: Cupertino, CA Today every single one of those would be from San Francisco or Silicon Valley, because that's where You Have To Be. Seattle I suppose gets an honorary mention, but the rest of the world doesn't exist. The same thing has happened to varying degrees in other industries. Everything has super-concentrated in a handful of super-expensive mostly coastal cities. The rest of the country is a backwater falling into permanent depression.

ghaff 11y ago
Combined with the fact that, for certain demographics, if you can't walk out of your apartment to a hipster coffee shop, life is basically not worth living. (SF pricing issues admittedly extend to the entire Bay, but for many thriving cities, very high prices are mostly a near-in urban phenomenon.)
ghaff 11y ago
The minicomputer industry was more concentrated, especially around Boston (though also Silicon Valley with HP, Rochester MN for IBM and others I'm sure I'm forgetting) but, even then, they were pretty spread out over a fairly large greater metropolitan area and beyond. There are still a lot of tech companies outside of the Valley, including startups. But there's certainly a tendency to concentrate.
mwcampbell 11y ago
So how do we fix this?
- api 11y ago
  I think it's concentration of capital more than anything else. You can do engineering or write code anywhere, but raising money is much easier in SF/SV than anywhere else.
  - mwcampbell 11y ago
    And why is raising money so important? Can't a lot of software businesses be bootstrapped?
    - api 11y ago
      Bootstrapped companies are at a huge disadvantage vs. funded companies. Funded companies can afford deeper longer-sighted investments and kamikaze growth-at-all-costs free/freemium strategies that bootstrappers cannot. The only huge growth companies to emerge as startups that I can think of that started with a paid product were companies with an unavoidable physical dimension like Uber and AirBnB.

ksenzee 11y ago

We BYU alumni have the advantage of an education that was massively subsidized, down to the point where you can actually afford to work your way through. State schools are supposed to do that too, but they don't anymore. That's why BYU is now near the top of the Forbes list of "Best Value Colleges" or whatever it is.

swsieber 11y ago
Right, but UVU is also not that expensive, ~3.5k a semester. I guess my point is class is still affordable if you are willing to get away a bit. Edit: These are meant to be example of cheapness in an area where I live. I don't think it's completely unique to this area. College does require planning ahead, and a year of living in a state and applying for residency can reduce the cost of college a great deal.
- 0x5f3759df-i 11y ago
  Out of state tuition is much more expensive.
- ksenzee 11y ago
  Some states aren't spending as much on higher ed as Utah. In Washington, where I live, in-state tuition averages ~$10k.
  - swsieber 11y ago
    Well, I do stand corrected then. Thanks :)

maxerickson 11y ago

For healthcare I think the circulation definition applies; that is, if you can't afford healthcare, you probably aren't middle class.

codeddesign 11y ago
That's a completely ridiculous and uneducated statement. Let's say you make $70k in a 3-person family (no subsidies), you pay $1,400 a month mortgage, $12,000 a year in health care premiums, and you have a $500 a month car loan. After taxes you have around $50,000. After mortgage you have roughly $33,000. After car payment you have $27,000. That gives you about $500 a week. Then you have cell phone, electricity, water, trash removal (some places), and then maybe cable. So...now you are down from $2k extra a month to $1,200 a month. If you want to eat, let's say $150 a week in groceries..you are now down to $600 a month...or $150 a week extra. Please tell me how the middle class can save any money, but a home, pay off debt, pay for college, go on vacation...etc. On just $150 a week extra, you could easy blow your monthly budget on buying everyone in the house shoes and then going out to eat 2 times a month.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Could you explain what you think I meant?