11 ms·
Anal probes are fine, if you've got nothing to hide [pdf]
- pigpaws 11y agoSponsored by the NSA and TSA. ~Good Day, Citizen.
- darkstar999 11y agoExcept neither of those agencies were involved in any way.
- Sir_Cmpwn 11y agoGood lord, I thought the title was a joke.
- fishnchips 11y agoI read about it a few years back. Has there been any resolution to this case recently?
- bunnymancer 11y agoWould you like to take a guess?
- consp 11y agoEducated: Cause 3 would be a no brainer. "WTF": Case dropped.
- wefarrell 11y ago"Though Defendants conducted these searches against the will of Ms. Doe and without her consent, the Medical Center billed Ms. Doe more than $5,000.00 for its “services." Reminds me of the bullet fees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee) charged by China and Iran.
- huac 11y agoit's similar to an EMT fee in that there isn't necessarily mutual consent to a contract
- pseudalopex 11y agoEMTs don't perform medically useless procedures on people who have refused them. Also, according to the complaint, CBP offered to pay if Ms. Doe signed a consent form. This was after they found nothing.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y agoMost police aspirants have to be sprayed with mace before they are allowed to use it on other people. We should require aspiring border patrol agents to undergo complete invasive searches as a part of their training before they are allowed to demand them for others.
- chris_wot 11y agoWe should have all their assets seized and they should spend a few years in jail also... edit: for the slow among us, obviously I don't believe this.
- coldtea 11y agoThey should spend some time in jail, yes -- like a month or so. Judges too. While it might clash with the "but they're proper human beings while those in jail are lesser humans" mentality some have [1], they should absolutely have a sense of what their punishments mean to people, and what the conditions where they sent them are. [1] To which I have to say, I hope you get thrown in jail sometime, something lots of otherwise upstanding citizens get to experience at some point or another, and not always because they were guilty (or unethical/unjustified which is a different thing), and then we'll see if you'll change your tune about prisoners being some kind of subhumans deserving everything they get. Especially in the US, a jail-happy country with 5% of the world's population but 25% of its prisoners.
- logfromblammo 11y agoMy spouse is a fan of trashy reality shows, to my eternal dismay. Naturally, these shows advertise other similar shows to their viewers. I have seen advertisements for a program where the apparent premise is to put a non-criminal into a "PMITA" prison for a month, and record their reactions. Even if they are only inside to get a taste, they will at least have "I get to go home after this" to hold on to while they are in.
- aninhumer 11y ago
- mtgx 11y agoIt's both sad and worrying what's happening with the culture of U.S. authorities. From police up to the NSA, they're all now thinking that the Constitution doesn't matter, personal liberty doesn't matter, human decency doesn't matter - it's all about the mission, and the mission must be solved at all costs. And if you have something to say against that, then you're the enemy of the state for trying to stop the state from accomplishing whatever mission it believes it has then. I think this trend will stop reversing only when the people manage to elect someone that will hold accountable and punish severely any member of law enforcement or the intelligence community that breaks the law or does unconstitutional things. Until then, things are only going to get worse, and it will become increasingly harder to do something about it.
- sickbeard 11y agoI think you should read the full pdf to understand where the problem occurred.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- swehner 11y agoSeems to have been settled. Found this: Mention of "Doe v. El Paso County Hospital District, et al. No. 3:13-cv-00406 (WD Tex., filed Dec. 18, 2013)" at this blog, https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/texas/ https://holdcbpaccountable.org/category/texas/ links to "Texas Hospital Reaches $1.1 Million Settlement" http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2014/07/07/hospital-settles-with-new-mexico-woman-over-search http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2014/07/0... (July 2014) In particular, "Texas Tech University, which operates a medical school campus at the hospital [will pay] $500,000."
- chris_wot 11y agoHappened in Albuquerque too. An earlier HN story is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7123442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7123442 The follow up articles are here: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/16/nation/la-na-nn-new-mexico-police-search-20140116 http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/16/nation/la-na-nn-new-... The poor guy one $1.6 million - and I'm not saying this sarcastically. I was absolutely outraged what they did to him, it was tantamount to rape. Disturbingly, the police officers who forced the illegal probe are still employed: https://www.rt.com/usa/163428-nm-cops-jobs-anal-probes/ https://www.rt.com/usa/163428-nm-cops-jobs-anal-probes/ These officers should have been thrown into jail, and each one of the medical staff who participated struck off.
- Roboprog 11y agoWow. So in both cases, money was squeezed out of somewhere that should have been providing actual services (hospitals), but the actual thugs had little to no consequences, at least not yet. Sad.
- chris_wot 11y agoThese situations need to be taken as criminal acts. There should be jail time, and real and direct consequences for those who take part. If people who do these things can do them with impunity, then they are likely to do them again and again. And the system, already teetering on the brink, will go right over.
- shimon 11y agoSome background from the ACLU of New Mexico, which filed this suit: https://www.aclu-nm.org/aclu-of-texas-and-new-mexico-sue-feds-county-for-invasive-cavity-searches-of-woman-at-u-s-mexico-border/2013/12/ https://www.aclu-nm.org/aclu-of-texas-and-new-mexico-sue-fed... I tried to find an update on this case (originally filed in 2013) and only found this 2015 ruling on the defendants' motion for protective order: http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/txwdce/3:2013cv00406/666787/147/ http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/tx...
- bunnymancer 11y agoFor those interested, this case seems to Still be ongoing since 2013... http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28cbp6h0i/texas-western-district-court/doe-v-el-paso-county-hospital-district-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28cbp6h0i/texas-western-dis... While it seems it was settled in July 2014, the case doesn't get closed until everything is sorted out. So.. Yeah.. Happy Justice everyone!
- MaysonL 11y agoStill ongoing, seemingly scheduled to go to trial next month: SCHEDULING ORDER: Jury Selection set for 5/16/2016 09:00AM before Judge David C Guaderrama, Jury Trial set for 5/16/2016 09:00 AM before Judge David C Guaderrama, Amended Pleadings due by 5/30/2015, Discovery due by 12/18/2015, Joinder of Parties due by 5/3/2015, Dispositive motions due by 2/19/2016,. Signed by Judge David C Guaderrama. (lc3) (Entered: 04/01/2015)
- isomorph 11y agoThis is one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. How can this happen?
- strathmeyer 11y agoWhen people talk to their friends about police abuse.... their friends don't believe them.
- chillingeffect 11y agoTry to view it as an aggregation of unsound beliefs, attitudes and values. It's kind of like code written without requirements, by someone who understood the goal of the project poorly because it wasn't described in a language they could speak, using all variables like A2, I3 and V1, built with a student compiler, executing on a static-zapped, assembly-line rejected CPU with errata, mounted on a circuit board soldered by hand connected to a compromised network, running from an intermittent power source controlling a water supply. These are more reasons why journalism and free speech matter. We need to have the ability to self-inspect our country and intervene where it's deficient.
- 4ndy 11y agoObedience to hierarchies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
- sickbeard 11y agoThere are many reasons why this happened, mainly they aer transferred to a nearby medical center which do these probes due to poor training. and the title is just clickbait. No it's not fine there are many laws against this.
- chris_wot 11y agoThe medical centre is in no way obligated to undertake the search though. $1.1 million is getting off easy.
- sickbeard 11y agoThey were not allowed to do that. Even in the pdf it says "Medical Center policy L-13 on searches by hospital personnel does not permit an invasion of a person’s body for purposes of a search without either consent or a search warrant." "Consequently, the Medical Center’s failure to train its personnel on the constitutional limits constraining law enforcement searches amounts to a deliberate indifference to the violation of individuals’ constitutional rights" Like I said it's a clickbait title. People are getting emotional over the title alone without reading the actual pdf
- chris_wot 11y agoI read the entirety of the document, and I can assure you I'm pretty fucking outraged at what was done.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- darkstar999 11y agoI'm surprised that the HN police haven't modified the clickbait title. They are usually on top of that for much more minor "offenses".
- monort 11y agoRecent case in South Carolina: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/04/01/video-shows-white-cops-performing-roadside-cavity-search-of-black-man/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/04/01/...
- Raphmedia 11y agoThis is sadly one of the reasons that the USA is one of the regions I will never go to as a tourist. The police has too much power.
- md224 11y agoWhat makes this even sadder is that it was done for what... to prevent someone from bringing controlled substances into the US? Who cares? Yet another bullshit consequence of the War on Drugs.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago>Who cares? People who are hurt by drug cartels. It is one thing to let people grow their own pot and sell it when they are law abiding (or otherwise law abiding) individuals. But when you get drugs from the drug cartel, the harm that goes into the production makes it wrong to use. We should support legal production and importation from human sources. But we should not legalize anything coming from the cartels.
- a3n 11y agoAgreed, and have for years, on both legalization and cartel boycotting. Every toke of cartel pot is a trigger pull. We boycott and divest from companies for various human rights violations, why not boycott cartels?
- TeMPOraL 11y agoThe problem is that cartels make money because of this enforcement. US War on Drugs actually fuels the black markets and the cartels.
- naasking 11y ago> But when you get drugs from the drug cartel, the harm that goes into the production makes it wrong to use. That doesn't really follow. Nazi medical experiments were wholely unethical, but it would be completely unethical not use whatever knowledge they gained to save other people's lives. Perhaps what you meant to say is that it would be wrong to pay for the drugs so the cartels actually benefit from their unethical behaviour. I agree with that, but that doesn't make the drugs unethical to use.
- sitkack 11y agoIt absolutely would be unethical to use that knowledge in any way. Are u kidding, this provides a huge loophole creation of unethical research.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- at-fates-hands 11y agoI usually stand up for cops, but this is asinine. I mean, how many shows do you see where they're at LaGuardia or JFK with the customs people there and they're sure a person has drugs on them? All they do is either warn them they're going to take an x-ray, or just make them take it and it will show if they have drugs on them - anywhere. No anal probe needed at all. Why cops feel anal probes are necessary are clearly not doing their job properly when suspicion of drugs are easily settled with a painless x-ray. Even the mere threat of an x-ray to get the person to tell them the truth is usually enough to get these drug mules to confess.
- a3n 11y agoWithout anal probes they lose one more way to say "I can do anything I want to you. I own you." These things are not just investigatory, they're for intimidation. Remember the woman who killed herself in a Texas jail in the last year. During the traffic stop, the cop yelled "I will light you up!" He was referring to a taser, and that was pure intimidation. Intimidation is a technique and a feature.
- jessaustin 11y agoWhile she was standing in line, a CBP dog handler walked by Ms. Doe and hit the ground by her feet, but did not hit the ground by any of the others in the line. The dog responded by lunging onto Ms. Doe and landing its front paws on her torso. Good grief, is every LEO "investigative" technique such total bullshit? If the dogs have been trained to alert when prompted to do so by the handler, they're really just a fig leaf for LEO discretion, which is rightly subjected to strict enough scrutiny to prevent "just search the Mexican lady, every single time". If the whole ridiculous expensive exercise of training and keeping dogs is a mere detour around such scrutiny, they're working a lot harder on that than they are on any of their stated objectives. One would like to think that LEOs might occasionally use a valid procedure, if for no other reason than by mistake, but one is eternally disappointed.
- pessimizer 11y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41K2XHpNnE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41K2XHpNnE Demonstration of fake alerting.
- ddt_Osprey 11y agoI don't know what the intended meaning of LEO is supposed to be in this context. Low Earth Orbit?
- bulletsvshumans 11y agoLaw Enforcement Officer.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- zellyn 11y agoLaw Enforcement Officer?
- smoyer 11y agoOne of the things I love about HN is that it's such a nerdy community - you gave me quite a smile!
- USApolicestate 11y agoYet another example of the corruption endemic to America. America is a police state. Repeat after me, America is a police state. The first step is to admit and state aloud the plain truth of the matter.
- donatj 11y ago> Though Defendants conducted these searches against the will of Ms. Doe and without her consent, the Medical Center billed Ms. Doe more than $5,000.00 for its “services.” God, that is the worst thing I have ever read. Ever. They horrendously violated her and then had the audacity to charge her for it.
- omginternets 11y agoThe dogs smelled drugs? You mean those dogs that are known to be trained in such a way as to yield false positives?
- Sacho 11y agoSimilar case from around that time frame - https://popehat.com/2013/11/07/what-is-the-quantum-of-proof-necessary-for-police-to-rape-and-torture-you-in-new-mexico/ https://popehat.com/2013/11/07/what-is-the-quantum-of-proof-... It ticks pretty much all the boxes. - drug dog "alerting" - x-ray, multiple enemas, colonoscopy - completely against the citizen's consent The major difference is that the police officers bothered to obtain a warrant(it didn't take much). The law analysis of the case was inconclusive, but the lawyers weren't really sure that the police officers hadn't acted lawfully.
- libeclipse 11y agoI see what you did there with the title.
- leesalminen 11y agoI just read the entire document and I'm literally trembling out of disgust and am in disbelief that such a thing could happen in a civilized society. So many levels of wrong. It almost makes me want to run for office or something. If good people stand by and do nothing, no change will happen.
- Pitarou 11y agoThis is the part that is utterly indefensible: "After the CT scan, a CBP [Customs and Border Protection] agent presented Ms. Doe with a choice: she could either sign a medical consent form, despite the fact that she had not consented, in which case CBP would pay for the cost of the searches; or if she refused to sign the consent form, she would be billed for the cost of the searches. She refused." And the medial center duly billed her more than $5,000.00.
- spurgu 11y agoThis is one of the reasons I will (most likely) never visit the USA.
- fuckthemods 11y agoAnd the pro state mods removed this from the front page. Fuck you mods, you must love the police state
- fuckthemods 11y agoThe mods dropped this from the front page Fuck you mods, duck your pro censorship pro totalitarian mentality.
- fuckthemods 11y agoThe mods dropped this from the front page, fuck you mods
- fuckthemods 11y agoFuck you mods for censoring the abuses of the police state. You must support torture as well
- fuckthemods 11y agoHN supports censorship and the police state!!!
- joveian 11y ago"When Ms. Doe expressed dismay about the unreasonable searches she suffered, a Medical Center employee responded that these procedures were routinely followed when an individual is brought in by CBP agents. The employee also told Ms. Doe that what happened to her was not invasive."