5 ms·

As long as they pay their taxes, what's the problem?

by cm3 11y ago

cm3 11y ago
Maybe the gentrification is an issue, but you either have a free market or not. Deciding to not sell real estate to foreigners wouldn't fly with the rest of the world.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Until recently, the reverse (foreigners buying property in China) was illegal. I believe it's still problematic, company ownership requires a local partner, and there are capital controls.
- branchless 11y ago
  This is naive. We don't have a free market in real estate at all: 1. banks can create credit at will and do so primarily against land 2. planning is tightly controlled 3. taxes on land are insufficient to counteract 1 given 2 4. the state underwrites land prices via subsidies Land is finite (even in Canada) due to constraints on infrastructure / topology. Not controlling ownership of a vital resource is IMHO nuts. We don't have a free market in anything.
  - turnip1979 11y ago
    Right on .. racism is wrong and what is also wrong is taxation and policies that discriminates against people who earn their living through employment income. We need to rethink this soon else I fear a general hatred towards capital and investment more generally (also wrong IMHO). We need to simply start taxing assets and luxury goods. It is a simple fix.
    - branchless 11y ago
      We should be blaming our establishment and the banks, not Chinese kids. I agree taxing rentiers is the way forward. Will Canada do this? I don't see Trudeau doing it, but Canada did have a land value tax party that gained quite a bit of popularity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Canada > In Vancouver LVT became the sole form of municipal taxation in 1910 under the leadership of mayor But that was when people understood the system better as opposed to now when they think banks are creating wealth when they create money which absorbs wealth. EDIT: replying here to turnip1979 as throttled by HN who hate talking about Land value tax and the banks being leeches ----- Perhaps. In the UK this week our Chancellor and Prime Minister had to disclose their tax records. They both earn more (if you include the part they pay to their wives to avoid tax) from rent from their main London property than they get paid. I'm afraid there has been a coup and one usually doesn't get too far writing letters to the new overlords.
      - turnip1979 11y ago
        I think we need to talk about the issue so that our representatives learn to differentiate between professionals who earn employment income and the ultrarich who hold the majority of assets. The central banks are refusing to even acknowledge inflation and the real estate bubble in front of our faces.
myth_drannon 11y ago
That's the whole point of anger towards them. Thats dirty money. That's money laundering. They don't pay income/corporate tax in Canada.
- vigilant 11y ago
  It seems incredible racist to assume that all Chinese money is dirty money and/or money laundering. Sure, some of it is, but China is also the world's factory - we pay them to manufacture stuff, that provides them with money legitimately. It might not be evenly distributed among the population, but that isn't the case in the US either.
  - imtringued 11y ago
    >money legitimately You're completly ignoring the massive subsidies and currency devaluation to keep this scheme going. If we didn't have import tariffs all our local industries would get destroyed because nobody can compete with someone who sells their goods below manufacturing costs for decades.
- simonh 11y ago
  They're not earning their money in Canada, so what's that got to do with the Canadian tax system? Whether or not they pay tax in China is China's problem, just the same as with any other money transferred from abroad. If I retire and moved to Canada with $10m (I wish), how much tax would I have to pay at the border? Would it matter which country I'm moving from?
  - kspaans 11y ago
    As a resident Canadian citizen (or permanent resident, or someone with a work permit) you are, generally speaking, supposed to pay Canadian taxes on earnings made abroad. IANATL, but I guess if your income comes from parents who live abroad you can get around most income taxes?
middleclick 11y ago
Another issue is that some of these rich kids usually don't integrate and have no desire to do so. They just milk the system. I studied at UBC. You will be surprised how many students can't speak basic conversational English.
- hvs 11y ago
  This is exactly the sort of argument made against Italians, Irish, and numerous others that have come to the U.S. It's pretty gross.
  - middleclick 11y ago
    Pointing out that some of these students - not only limited to Chinese - do not integrate is not the same as being racist. That's quite a hyperbole.
    - cm3 11y ago
      But do they have to learn the local language when they don't plan to stay there indefinitely?
  - herewulf 11y ago
    Interestingly for the most part these European immigrants refused to teach their children born in the USA their native languages because they were that concerned with integration. I think it is sad that languages were not passed on but it seems that later waves of immigrants or even some groups as a whole (e.g.: Chinese, Latin Americans) are more concerned about preserving their native languages in their new country.
- plg 11y ago
  I went to school with kids from HK who arrived and didn't speak English very well. After a short time their English improved substantially, and after a couple of years, frankly, many of them could write essays with better grammar than many of the caucasian native English speakers in the class. Instead of criticizing immigrants for being different, how about we welcome them, support them, and make a better home for everyone. Part of the reason it appears that they don't want to "integrate" is because so many people around them are instantly hostile. Be welcoming and you will be surprised at what you will learn about the world (and about yourself).
jmorphy88 11y ago
Isn't there a lot more more to being a citizen of a country than paying one's taxes? Nothing about integrating into a community? A country is not an economy. Let's put it this way... if I were a (white) billionaire, and a few hundred of my richest friends and I moved to China and started buying up real estate in a major city and flaunting our wealth all over the place, how do you think the locals would receive us?
- NhanH 11y ago
  Actually, being Chinese they will probably like you alot ...
- rmah 11y ago
  Um, that is essentially what happened about 100 years ago. A few differences though... The europeans brought along lots of armed guards and demanded China's laws didn't apply to them. Obviously, there was some friction.
  - chillydawg 11y ago
    Are you describing Hong Kong?
    - dagw 11y ago
      Sounds like the Boxer rebellion
    - rmah 11y ago
      Yes, among other locations (Hong Kong, Canton, Amoy, Shanghai, etc.). I was describing the various "treaty ports" that were established following the Opium Wars, which were essentially a series of wars fought by the west to allow the import of illegal drugs into China. The major western powers forced China into providing land and extra-territorial rights to westerners in China. The Chinese still remember this era quite vividly and describe it as the "Century of Humiliation".
- __s 11y ago
branchless 11y ago
I think for Vancouver dwellers the problem is taxes need to be land value tax not income tax.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Land tax is certainly much harder to avoid - there is a reason the 0.01% hate land taxes.
  - cm3 11y ago
    Build vertically?
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      That does not help you avoid a land tax ;) We will know the 0.01% are losing the class war when a serious land tax is introduced. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon.
      - branchless 11y ago
        It does to an extent because you are taxed on the land not the improvement. You are not taxed more for having more living area. I agree with you LVT and it's over for the banks and the rentiers. We will have to fight them to the end for this, it is the end for them so they will throw everything at it.
    - branchless 11y ago
      Then you add value without taking up more space. This would reduce the cost of a human requirement: shelter. This is what LVT is for. Our present system is about maximising the availability of credit to absorb all spare capacity. This is why we are working full time despite massive productivity improvements. This is why when women entered the labour force it was all absorbed by land prices. The 1% in the main don't want to "build vertically". They want to do nothing and have you work and give them a cut of their income. I'm fine with people making life better and getting a cut. ps this may be the last comment I can make as HN hates LVT and any criticism of rentiers
ucsdrake 11y ago
There wouldn't be, if that were the case.[3] As the article mentioned, many individuals are 'gifted' items from family members still residing in China. How do you tax somebody that has no official income? (aside from the tax one purchase itself, which isn't what I think you're referring to). Such tax avoidance schemes aren't unheard of[1]. What adds the contention and frustrations of residents is the foreign investments in real-estate, which, in Vancouver and Toronto specifically, are driving the costs above what they can realistically afford. Again, it's not unheard of for the foreign investors to be using the real estate as tax avoidance in their own country[2], at the cost of the local citizens quality of living. [1] - http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kpmg-offshore-sham-deceived-tax-authorities-cra-alleges-1.3209838 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kpmg-offshore-sham-deceived-... [2] - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-crisis-in-vancouver-the-lifeblood-of-the-city-is-leaving/article28730533/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-crisis-in-vancouver... [3] - ninja edit - I'm not trying to categorically say none of those mentioned in the articles pay taxes! Of course that's not the case! What I'm trying to communicate is, those who aren't and are avoiding paying taxes, are the ones causing issues for local residents and what the focus of these articles I've mentioned.
- cm3 11y ago
  Sounds like there's need for catching (maybe with new laws) tax evasion as described. But at the very least they will consume stuff and pay taxes there. I guess their stay is more like a prolonged vacation of some sort.
  - ucsdrake 11y ago
    No doubt some of the tax evasion needs to be caught (where possible while maintaining a free market, I'm aware that may be a false dichotomy). However, there is little hope of anything being done in regards to the real estate situation given the state of Canada's current economy[1]. There's no incentive for the current governments (federal or provincial) to curb the trend. [1] - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-29/canada-s-one-legged-stool-economy http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-29/canada-s-o...
hackerboos 11y ago
That's the problem. They're not [1]. In fact, refugees are paying more in taxes than millionaire immigrants of the now defunct investor program [2]. [1] - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/the-market/foreign-investors-avoid-taxes-by-buying-real-estate-in-canada/article26683767/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/the-market/foreig... [2] - http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/refugees-pay-more-income-tax-than-millionaire-investor-immigrants-1.2984982 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/refugees-pay-more-income-tax...

As long as they pay their taxes, what's the problem?

by cm3 11y ago

As long as they pay their taxes, what's the problem?

cm3 11y ago

Maybe the gentrification is an issue, but you either have a free market or not. Deciding to not sell real estate to foreigners wouldn't fly with the rest of the world.

pjc50 11y ago
Until recently, the reverse (foreigners buying property in China) was illegal. I believe it's still problematic, company ownership requires a local partner, and there are capital controls.
branchless 11y ago
This is naive. We don't have a free market in real estate at all: 1. banks can create credit at will and do so primarily against land 2. planning is tightly controlled 3. taxes on land are insufficient to counteract 1 given 2 4. the state underwrites land prices via subsidies Land is finite (even in Canada) due to constraints on infrastructure / topology. Not controlling ownership of a vital resource is IMHO nuts. We don't have a free market in anything.
- turnip1979 11y ago
  Right on .. racism is wrong and what is also wrong is taxation and policies that discriminates against people who earn their living through employment income. We need to rethink this soon else I fear a general hatred towards capital and investment more generally (also wrong IMHO). We need to simply start taxing assets and luxury goods. It is a simple fix.
  - branchless 11y ago
    We should be blaming our establishment and the banks, not Chinese kids. I agree taxing rentiers is the way forward. Will Canada do this? I don't see Trudeau doing it, but Canada did have a land value tax party that gained quite a bit of popularity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Canada > In Vancouver LVT became the sole form of municipal taxation in 1910 under the leadership of mayor But that was when people understood the system better as opposed to now when they think banks are creating wealth when they create money which absorbs wealth. EDIT: replying here to turnip1979 as throttled by HN who hate talking about Land value tax and the banks being leeches ----- Perhaps. In the UK this week our Chancellor and Prime Minister had to disclose their tax records. They both earn more (if you include the part they pay to their wives to avoid tax) from rent from their main London property than they get paid. I'm afraid there has been a coup and one usually doesn't get too far writing letters to the new overlords.
    - turnip1979 11y ago
      I think we need to talk about the issue so that our representatives learn to differentiate between professionals who earn employment income and the ultrarich who hold the majority of assets. The central banks are refusing to even acknowledge inflation and the real estate bubble in front of our faces.

myth_drannon 11y ago

That's the whole point of anger towards them. Thats dirty money. That's money laundering. They don't pay income/corporate tax in Canada.

vigilant 11y ago
It seems incredible racist to assume that all Chinese money is dirty money and/or money laundering. Sure, some of it is, but China is also the world's factory - we pay them to manufacture stuff, that provides them with money legitimately. It might not be evenly distributed among the population, but that isn't the case in the US either.
- imtringued 11y ago
  >money legitimately You're completly ignoring the massive subsidies and currency devaluation to keep this scheme going. If we didn't have import tariffs all our local industries would get destroyed because nobody can compete with someone who sells their goods below manufacturing costs for decades.
simonh 11y ago
They're not earning their money in Canada, so what's that got to do with the Canadian tax system? Whether or not they pay tax in China is China's problem, just the same as with any other money transferred from abroad. If I retire and moved to Canada with $10m (I wish), how much tax would I have to pay at the border? Would it matter which country I'm moving from?
- kspaans 11y ago
  As a resident Canadian citizen (or permanent resident, or someone with a work permit) you are, generally speaking, supposed to pay Canadian taxes on earnings made abroad. IANATL, but I guess if your income comes from parents who live abroad you can get around most income taxes?

middleclick 11y ago

Another issue is that some of these rich kids usually don't integrate and have no desire to do so. They just milk the system. I studied at UBC. You will be surprised how many students can't speak basic conversational English.

hvs 11y ago
This is exactly the sort of argument made against Italians, Irish, and numerous others that have come to the U.S. It's pretty gross.
- middleclick 11y ago
  Pointing out that some of these students - not only limited to Chinese - do not integrate is not the same as being racist. That's quite a hyperbole.
  - cm3 11y ago
    But do they have to learn the local language when they don't plan to stay there indefinitely?
- herewulf 11y ago
  Interestingly for the most part these European immigrants refused to teach their children born in the USA their native languages because they were that concerned with integration. I think it is sad that languages were not passed on but it seems that later waves of immigrants or even some groups as a whole (e.g.: Chinese, Latin Americans) are more concerned about preserving their native languages in their new country.
plg 11y ago
I went to school with kids from HK who arrived and didn't speak English very well. After a short time their English improved substantially, and after a couple of years, frankly, many of them could write essays with better grammar than many of the caucasian native English speakers in the class. Instead of criticizing immigrants for being different, how about we welcome them, support them, and make a better home for everyone. Part of the reason it appears that they don't want to "integrate" is because so many people around them are instantly hostile. Be welcoming and you will be surprised at what you will learn about the world (and about yourself).

jmorphy88 11y ago

Isn't there a lot more more to being a citizen of a country than paying one's taxes? Nothing about integrating into a community? A country is not an economy. Let's put it this way... if I were a (white) billionaire, and a few hundred of my richest friends and I moved to China and started buying up real estate in a major city and flaunting our wealth all over the place, how do you think the locals would receive us?

NhanH 11y ago
Actually, being Chinese they will probably like you alot ...
rmah 11y ago
Um, that is essentially what happened about 100 years ago. A few differences though... The europeans brought along lots of armed guards and demanded China's laws didn't apply to them. Obviously, there was some friction.
- chillydawg 11y ago
  Are you describing Hong Kong?
  - dagw 11y ago
    Sounds like the Boxer rebellion
  - rmah 11y ago
    Yes, among other locations (Hong Kong, Canton, Amoy, Shanghai, etc.). I was describing the various "treaty ports" that were established following the Opium Wars, which were essentially a series of wars fought by the west to allow the import of illegal drugs into China. The major western powers forced China into providing land and extra-territorial rights to westerners in China. The Chinese still remember this era quite vividly and describe it as the "Century of Humiliation".
__s 11y ago

branchless 11y ago

I think for Vancouver dwellers the problem is taxes need to be land value tax not income tax.

danieltillett 11y ago
Land tax is certainly much harder to avoid - there is a reason the 0.01% hate land taxes.
- cm3 11y ago
  Build vertically?
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    That does not help you avoid a land tax ;) We will know the 0.01% are losing the class war when a serious land tax is introduced. I personally don't see it happening anytime soon.
    - branchless 11y ago
      It does to an extent because you are taxed on the land not the improvement. You are not taxed more for having more living area. I agree with you LVT and it's over for the banks and the rentiers. We will have to fight them to the end for this, it is the end for them so they will throw everything at it.
  - branchless 11y ago
    Then you add value without taking up more space. This would reduce the cost of a human requirement: shelter. This is what LVT is for. Our present system is about maximising the availability of credit to absorb all spare capacity. This is why we are working full time despite massive productivity improvements. This is why when women entered the labour force it was all absorbed by land prices. The 1% in the main don't want to "build vertically". They want to do nothing and have you work and give them a cut of their income. I'm fine with people making life better and getting a cut. ps this may be the last comment I can make as HN hates LVT and any criticism of rentiers

ucsdrake 11y ago

There wouldn't be, if that were the case.[3] As the article mentioned, many individuals are 'gifted' items from family members still residing in China. How do you tax somebody that has no official income? (aside from the tax one purchase itself, which isn't what I think you're referring to). Such tax avoidance schemes aren't unheard of[1]. What adds the contention and frustrations of residents is the foreign investments in real-estate, which, in Vancouver and Toronto specifically, are driving the costs above what they can realistically afford. Again, it's not unheard of for the foreign investors to be using the real estate as tax avoidance in their own country[2], at the cost of the local citizens quality of living. [1] - http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kpmg-offshore-sham-deceived-tax-authorities-cra-alleges-1.3209838 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kpmg-offshore-sham-deceived-... [2] - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-crisis-in-vancouver-the-lifeblood-of-the-city-is-leaving/article28730533/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/a-crisis-in-vancouver... [3] - ninja edit - I'm not trying to categorically say none of those mentioned in the articles pay taxes! Of course that's not the case! What I'm trying to communicate is, those who aren't and are avoiding paying taxes, are the ones causing issues for local residents and what the focus of these articles I've mentioned.

cm3 11y ago
Sounds like there's need for catching (maybe with new laws) tax evasion as described. But at the very least they will consume stuff and pay taxes there. I guess their stay is more like a prolonged vacation of some sort.
- ucsdrake 11y ago
  No doubt some of the tax evasion needs to be caught (where possible while maintaining a free market, I'm aware that may be a false dichotomy). However, there is little hope of anything being done in regards to the real estate situation given the state of Canada's current economy[1]. There's no incentive for the current governments (federal or provincial) to curb the trend. [1] - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-29/canada-s-one-legged-stool-economy http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-29/canada-s-o...

hackerboos 11y ago

That's the problem. They're not [1]. In fact, refugees are paying more in taxes than millionaire immigrants of the now defunct investor program [2]. [1] - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/the-market/foreign-investors-avoid-taxes-by-buying-real-estate-in-canada/article26683767/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/the-market/foreig... [2] - http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/refugees-pay-more-income-tax-than-millionaire-investor-immigrants-1.2984982 http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/refugees-pay-more-income-tax...