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Greetings comrade. I wholeheartedly concur. Its been a source of great confusion to me why otherwise intelligent and open-minded people are so steadfastly oppo

Greetings comrade. I wholeheartedly concur. Its been a source of great confusion to me why otherwise intelligent and open-minded people are so steadfastly opposed to the one thing that can improve their earnings potential dramatically. I have observed a strong shift to the "left" in the last few years though, so I won't be surprised if this happens soon. I also expect that given the resources and capability inherent in a "programmer's union", the capacity and ability of such a movement would be very significant very early on. We built the modern world with its social and communications infrastructure, and we aught be able to exploit it for our personal betterment easier than most. Doctors, dentists, lawyers all benefit greatly from their "protected" professions, why not us ?

morgante 11y ago
Unions will not improve everyone's earnings. They will compress the differential, and as someone who likes getting paid more than the average programmer I absolutely would oppose that. Doctors, dentists, and lawyers don't have unions. They have professional associations (which might be a good idea for programmers) but they still negotiate individually.
- ageofwant 11y ago
  It is perfectly permissible to be a member of a union and negotiate as a individual, the one does not automatically preclude the other.
- imtringued 11y ago
  >likes getting paid more than the average programmer In what way would a union prevent that?
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    Anything that raises average programming wages significantly is likely to reduce peak programming wages. (Companies are unlikely to just take the increase in wages as a hit to profitability. They're going to shave the peak and put everyone into tighter "bands" than is currently the case and probably dismiss some of the lowest performers [which might be healthy, of course].)
    - ageofwant 11y ago
      As I'm a "average programmer" I'll probably benefit from a significant raise is average programmer renumeration. As will, by definition, the vast majority of programmers. As a self confessed "peak" programmer you believe you have little need of a union to further your cause and you may very well be right. This does not change the fact that the majority of the fraternity will. The fact that you may be adversely effected does not concern me. I'm sure you are more than capable of holding your own. As a "peak performer" I'd fully expect you to raise to the challenge and do even greater things.
      - sokoloff 11y ago
        Ages ago, I probably was. I no longer am, but that's largely irrelevant and I'm more than happy to hold my own union or not. Where do you think the "significant raise" will come from? What tactics will a union employ to cause that happen and if successful, what will the side effects be? Programming is already an incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field. If you don't have leverage now, will you really have more with a union? (To be clear, I don't believe that unionizing would significantly raise programming wages.)
        ageofwant 11y ago
        Balance of power. Employers have it, employees do not. If companies and employers treated their workers with dignity and respect no unions would be necessary. * I'm sure you are familiar with how collective bargaining power works and how it can be used for good or ill. It is because of the actions of worker unions that people today enjoy many rights that they take for granted. You, personally, have benefited greatly from union movements through the ages. In fact, the creation of the so called "middle-class" worldwide can be directly attributed to worker union agitation. In many ways unions have created the world we live in. As the middle class produced the consumers corporates depend on. To me, these are all excellent and worthwhile side-effects. Today you can witness the slow destruction of the middle class again, as capitalism looses its way and degenerates into corporate fascism. Programming is a "incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field" ? Compared to what ? Investment banker ? Oil rig worker ? Corporate management ? Chartered Accountant ? I do believe unionizing will significantly raise wages, historically they have. * (apologies for the little rant, I'm leaving it in as it amuses me)
- te_chris 11y ago
  Doctors absolutely do have unions, Google the British medical association, or many others across the world
martin1975 11y ago
https://www.rt.com/usa/339472-verizon-union-strike-bernie/ https://www.rt.com/usa/339472-verizon-union-strike-bernie/ Check this out. Now imagine software engineers at Amazon, Netflix or wherever they are being treated unfairly had the chutzpah to stage a massive walk out, where suddenly the collective objective of the union becomes more important than continued employment under the current conditions, whatever those may be? Yes, this kind of collective bargaining can be abused selfishly, but if you don't even have this kind of unity as engineers, then I ask you - how will you find out what is possible if you don't put up a fight through the best means known to man - mass disobedience and non-cooperation? Look in the mirror, dear colleagues, and ask yourselves tonight - what do these Verizon workers have that I do not? Whom do I have to be so I can inspire my peers to follow my example rather than have them only look out for #1? What sacrifice do I/we have to make individually to contribute to the betterment of the whole? How will I tighten my and my family's belt next week, month or a year down the road so that this kind of action becomes possible? Yes, you may be fired for this, or worse, bribed or promoted to get you to back down. Hell, you may even be killed, Hoffa style. The question then becomes - what is sacred and sancrosanct to me? What do I value more than my own life? There is no heuristic, no algorithm to answer this for you. It's just the mirror and whatever higher cause you believe in.

morgante 11y ago

Unions will not improve everyone's earnings. They will compress the differential, and as someone who likes getting paid more than the average programmer I absolutely would oppose that. Doctors, dentists, and lawyers don't have unions. They have professional associations (which might be a good idea for programmers) but they still negotiate individually.

ageofwant 11y ago
It is perfectly permissible to be a member of a union and negotiate as a individual, the one does not automatically preclude the other.
imtringued 11y ago
>likes getting paid more than the average programmer In what way would a union prevent that?
- sokoloff 11y ago
  Anything that raises average programming wages significantly is likely to reduce peak programming wages. (Companies are unlikely to just take the increase in wages as a hit to profitability. They're going to shave the peak and put everyone into tighter "bands" than is currently the case and probably dismiss some of the lowest performers [which might be healthy, of course].)
  - ageofwant 11y ago
    As I'm a "average programmer" I'll probably benefit from a significant raise is average programmer renumeration. As will, by definition, the vast majority of programmers. As a self confessed "peak" programmer you believe you have little need of a union to further your cause and you may very well be right. This does not change the fact that the majority of the fraternity will. The fact that you may be adversely effected does not concern me. I'm sure you are more than capable of holding your own. As a "peak performer" I'd fully expect you to raise to the challenge and do even greater things.
    - sokoloff 11y ago
      Ages ago, I probably was. I no longer am, but that's largely irrelevant and I'm more than happy to hold my own union or not. Where do you think the "significant raise" will come from? What tactics will a union employ to cause that happen and if successful, what will the side effects be? Programming is already an incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field. If you don't have leverage now, will you really have more with a union? (To be clear, I don't believe that unionizing would significantly raise programming wages.)
      - ageofwant 11y ago
        Balance of power. Employers have it, employees do not. If companies and employers treated their workers with dignity and respect no unions would be necessary. * I'm sure you are familiar with how collective bargaining power works and how it can be used for good or ill. It is because of the actions of worker unions that people today enjoy many rights that they take for granted. You, personally, have benefited greatly from union movements through the ages. In fact, the creation of the so called "middle-class" worldwide can be directly attributed to worker union agitation. In many ways unions have created the world we live in. As the middle class produced the consumers corporates depend on. To me, these are all excellent and worthwhile side-effects. Today you can witness the slow destruction of the middle class again, as capitalism looses its way and degenerates into corporate fascism. Programming is a "incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field" ? Compared to what ? Investment banker ? Oil rig worker ? Corporate management ? Chartered Accountant ? I do believe unionizing will significantly raise wages, historically they have. * (apologies for the little rant, I'm leaving it in as it amuses me)
te_chris 11y ago
Doctors absolutely do have unions, Google the British medical association, or many others across the world

martin1975 11y ago

https://www.rt.com/usa/339472-verizon-union-strike-bernie/ https://www.rt.com/usa/339472-verizon-union-strike-bernie/ Check this out. Now imagine software engineers at Amazon, Netflix or wherever they are being treated unfairly had the chutzpah to stage a massive walk out, where suddenly the collective objective of the union becomes more important than continued employment under the current conditions, whatever those may be? Yes, this kind of collective bargaining can be abused selfishly, but if you don't even have this kind of unity as engineers, then I ask you - how will you find out what is possible if you don't put up a fight through the best means known to man - mass disobedience and non-cooperation? Look in the mirror, dear colleagues, and ask yourselves tonight - what do these Verizon workers have that I do not? Whom do I have to be so I can inspire my peers to follow my example rather than have them only look out for #1? What sacrifice do I/we have to make individually to contribute to the betterment of the whole? How will I tighten my and my family's belt next week, month or a year down the road so that this kind of action becomes possible? Yes, you may be fired for this, or worse, bribed or promoted to get you to back down. Hell, you may even be killed, Hoffa style. The question then becomes - what is sacred and sancrosanct to me? What do I value more than my own life? There is no heuristic, no algorithm to answer this for you. It's just the mirror and whatever higher cause you believe in.