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Does anyone have more context on Dan Lyons? After reading this article, and the one from Fortune[0], and his post on LinkedIn[1], it feels like he's out there

• CPLX 11y ago
  Yes he's doing PR for a book by telling bits and pieces of the same story in other media. That's what writers do for a living. If you genuinely want to get a read on the guy listen to this long form interview on Fresh Air from a couple days ago: http://www.npr.org/2016/04/05/473097951/laid-off-tech-journalist-joins-a-start-up-finds-its-part-frat-part-cult http://www.npr.org/2016/04/05/473097951/laid-off-tech-journa... He comes across as quite lucid and nuanced in my opinion, and also credible, as he has been covering the tech industry for decades and has a sense of context (he was also fake Steve Jobs by the way) rather than a "look at these crazy start up kids" point of view.
  • ianstormtaylor 11y ago
    Great interview, thanks for the link. Edited my comment above with a bit of your thinking. Thanks!
  • ghaff 11y ago
    I have a certain level of discomfort with embellished storytelling presented as journalism (think Tom Wolfe and Hunter S. Thompson though I don't put Dan at that level). And, in his book, Dan makes some cracks that are arguably reverse-ageist. That said, I find it's a cogent perspective even if it probably shouldn't be taken as literally accurate reportage.
    • bigiain 11y ago
      While I get what you're objecting to, the world would have been a lesser place without HST's writing (in my opinion anyway). There's a broad grey line between "factual objective news reporting" and "storytelling" and the word journalism isn't specifically defined enough for it to be strictly towards the news reporting edges of that grey area. As Wikipedia puts it (with all the lack-of-credibility of quoting Wikipedia as a source, I'll admit): "Journalism, however, is not always confined to the news media or to news itself, as journalistic communication may find its way into broader forms of expression, including literature and cinema." To me, journalism as commissioned by The Rolling Stone is _supposed_ to be "embellished storytelling". The front page of the NY Times? Sure, that's supposed to be "news" not story telling. But a long-ish form article in the "Sunday Review" section of the Times? At least my expectations lean closer to a Rolling Stone story than a hard hitting fact checked piece of investigative journalism...
      • ghaff 11y ago
        I don't really disagree. OTOH, the UVA story in Rolling Stone was supposed to be journalism as opposed to something supposedly "truthy" and heads rolled as a result. I'm not opposed to new journalism as it was called at one point but I think I can feel a bit of legitimate discomfort when the boundaries blur (even when they're net positive as in the case of HST).
• B1FF_PSUVM 11y ago
  > Does anyone have more context on Dan Lyons? Look up "Fake Steve Jobs", it was a great read back in its day. He stopped the blog when it became apparent that Jobs was mortally ill. Pretty good insights into the "Silicon Valley" pathological culture. (It has long since mutated astonishingly from the simple Fairchild seed that named it.)
  • x5n1 11y ago
    Not pathological, productive... productive damn it. And we won't hire you if you don't toe the party line and rhetoric. Ever. Enjoy being blacklisted for not behaving yourself. /s
• beachstartup 11y ago
  this might come as a .. surprise to you, but the entire news and media business basically exists for this purpose.
• guelo 11y ago
  You're searching for a good adhominem attack, coming up empty, and asking for the startup community's help in taking him down.
  • ianstormtaylor 11y ago
    No I'm not. I'm looking for more information, because I don't want to buy into outlandish-sounding PR articles on their basis alone. While you were writing this comment, I was editing my comment with insights from the interview that @CPLX linked to ;) and I agree with him.
    • timr 11y ago
      I read it that way, too. Why does it matter that the guy is writing a book? Why does it matter that the article is marketing for the book? Is it true? Sounds like it is. I read your comment after the edits were applied, and I still thought it was one of those sneaky sorts of "homeopathic ad hominem" attacks where you don't make the attack directly, but instead allude to the "questions" that invoke the attack when considered by the reader.
      • Gigablah 11y ago
        I guess the term you're looking for is "concern trolling".
        • deleted 11y ago
          [deleted]
      • ianstormtaylor 11y ago
        > Why does it matter that the guy is writing a book? Why does it matter that the article is marketing for the book? Is it true? Sounds like it is. Are you asking me: why does it matter what existing motivations a person has when trying to uncover which parts of their account is truthful? Seems pretty obvious why that information is important... Going solely off of "Is it true? Sounds like it is." sounds like an easy way to end up just confirming your own biases all of the time. Sorry you took my comment that way, that's not how I intended it. I was honestly curious because I knew nothing about him, and the few articles I found seemed suspect, so I wanted to know if others felt the same, or if he was legit. And with people's replies with more information, I can now say for myself that it seems like he's more legit than not.
• wierdaaron 11y ago
  Dan Lyons was Fake Steve Jobs, then was a gadget writer where he was a frequent doomsayer of Apple and complained endlessly about the lack of access and review units Apple gave him. When he left that job and went to an advertising startup it was assumed that he'd just burned all of his tech writing bridges and had to resort to writing ad copy, but looking back I'd say it's a fair shot that he wanted an angle to write about startups so he took a job at one.
  • rev_null 11y ago
    Don't forget that he was also a shill for SCO.
• rm999 11y ago
  He did start the book to sort of mock the company; from his NPR interview: >when I first sold the book and start to write it, it was meant to be sort of a modern-day "Office Space ... I wanted to write just a funny story about being in a kooky company. It was just a comedy. On one hand I think it's sort of disingenuous - the company culture was never a good fit for him and he shouldn't harm others because of his mistake (I know people who have had negative non-fiction stories written about them, and it can take a personal toll - I hope he left names and specifics out). It doesn't seem like HubSpot ever tries to hide their culture like Amazon has been known to do. On the other hand, it really is an interesting story. I'm old enough that I'd never work at a place like HubSpot, so to me it's an interesting perspective on an interesting work environment that is common in the new millennial world. In other words, real journalism :)
  • rhizome 11y ago
    Infiltration is a time-tested and legit writer's tool.
  • eropple 11y ago
    > the company culture was never a good fit for him and he shouldn't harm others because of his mistake How about the company shouldn't try to harm its workers? Because they do. Most startups do (it's practically part of the business plan, underpay your workers and dilute their equity 'til, if you are a mega-success, selling out might make up the delta between your underpaying salary and the one they could have gotten at a normal company), most tech companies do (though in other ways, hello collusion and managerial gaslighting). And shining a light on that is, if not noble, at least necessary.
  • x0x0 11y ago
    The jump to Lyons entered employment under false pretenses / with this book in mind doesn't seem justified by anything I've read. It seems more like he found himself in a somewhat ludicrous situation and wrote a book about it.
    • bb88 11y ago
      That was my read too after listening to the fresh air interview. He said he thought it could be fun working with a bunch of out of college kids doing something exciting in a growing company. He had that experience before, afterall.
• zeemonkee3 11y ago
  It's good to poke fun at childishness and pretentiousness in the startup world (and there is plenty of it without the need to embellish), but yeah, this is wearing a bit thin.
  • ljw1001 11y ago
    Poking fun at the childishness and pretentiousness is wearing thin? Isn't the childishness and pretentiousness a lot thinner?
    • zeemonkee3 11y ago
      I meant specifically Dan Lyons' articles. Poking fun is good and healthy.
• x5n1 11y ago
  When corporations do it it's common sense, when people do it is out of context.
• ditonal 11y ago
  Most of the positive things I read about company cultures, the "best places to work" lists, the glowing pieces on the founders, the TechCrunch articles, the phony Glassdoor reviews, are infinitely more self-aggrandizing fluff PR pieces than anything Lyons has written. No doubt about it, he's promoting his book and his show, but I'm glad some other sides of the story are being told.
  • TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    It's maybe useful not to confuse specific criticisms of HubSpot with more general criticisms of the culty stage-managed hyper-enthusiasm that surrounds startup culture in general. Just because someone is earning $150k doesn't mean they're not being sweated and exploited. To its owner, an expensive machine is still just a machine, and not an equal partner. The tell is always the quality and genuineness of the relationships between employees and owners. It's completely possible for owners to take a genuine interest in the welfare of employees, and to see them as colleagues instead of productive units to be sweated. But this may not happen as much as it should. And the boilerplate puppies-on-adderall always-crushing-it change-the-world so-very-excited incredible-journey rhetoric turns out to be an excellent smoke screen for owners who have no interest in anything except personal gain - and aren't even slightly concerned if they leave a trail of human wreckage behind them. And even if you start off wanting to be a humane founder, there's no guarantee investors will let you run your company like that. So it's easy to criticise Lyons for playing to the gallery with his book. But that doesn't mean that what he's playing is an improvised fiction.
• slg 11y ago
  Like the Silicon Valley TV show, the truthfulness of the specifics of this story aren't really the important part. If public perception of startups is as childish frat house like cults, that is a problem whether or not specific startups are in fact childish frat house like cults. I mean that is the exact reason why we use the phrase "frat house" as a pejorative regardless of the merits of specific fraternities.
  • theoh 11y ago
    Actually, what you are asking for is cumulative correct reporting of individual cases leading to a correct impression of the whole sector. I may just have downvoted you (fat finger error, and no way to reverse a vote on HN) but I agree.
    • tostitos1979 11y ago
      I'm an older tech worker (sounded weird when I just read it out :-p ) and I've found there are two gross classes of startups. The ones that have a fire fast mentality, burn workers to the ground, etc. mentality and others which take it like a marathon as opposed to a sprint. I wish we had names for these two kinds of startups because they would save everyone some time when it comes to figuring out who to work for. Both are good in certain situations and for certain clases of people IMHO.
• eropple 11y ago
  I don't know Lyons, but I do know HubSpot, and everything he's saying tracks with what I've heard from other people. And not just people with the temerity to be old, but just with the misfortune to be able to read a social group and make some conclusions about it. The company is a culture mob, there is aggressive practice of neuro-linguistic programming all over the place (never mind that it doesn't work, of course), and the whole thing is notably cultish and terrifying, in a startup world where "cultish and terrifying" is part of the standard playbook in the first place. I do not much like them, if that is not obvious. What makes me a little bit sad is when I meet somebody who works there--it's Boston, if you are in tech circles you are going to meet HubSpot people--and they're bought-in hard enough to not see that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. They hire a lot of good kids and try to kill them, or at least turn them into Dilbert-esque sodden gray rags, by the end of their second year. They're not the only company to do it, and not the only company to do it here in Boston, but they are a stand-out offender.
  • wirelessest 11y ago
    Ed, I like that you've kept that perspective without having to had experience it. TBF I don't think it's been like that forever, but it's definitely taken on the role of the primary Good Engineer Burnout machine in Boston.
• luckydata 11y ago
  I worked in tech for a while and nothing he says sounds implausible or strange. Most jobs in tech are bad, all the perks are there just to confuse young suckers about who's taking advantage of who, and the libertarian streak of tech worker is carefully cultivated to make us weaker as a category. The only glimmer of hope is that personally I'm noticing my peers and friends working all over the Bay Area are starting to notice. Maybe in a few years we'll do something about it.
  • eclipxe 11y ago
    >Most jobs in tech are bad I'm not sure I can even understand how your arrive at this conclusion? Looking over the entire set of available jobs, tech is clearly one of the best fields to be in. From pay to autonomy to working conditions, etc etc. You want to see a bad job? Coal mining is a bad job.
    • eropple 11y ago
      This is crab-bucket thinking, though. "You don't have it that bad!" Maybe labor, period, kind of has it bad, and that the tug-of-war between labor and capital is in a bad spot right now? Being a little bit less screwed doesn't make you not screwed, it makes you less screwed.
  • jdminhbg 11y ago
    > the libertarian streak of tech worker is carefully cultivated to make us weaker as a category Wow, that must take a whole lot of careful coordination.
    • Gibbon1 11y ago
      You have no idea. The people that pull the strings in the tech industry all know each other, and meet regularly coordinate 'business' See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocking_directorate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlocking_directorate Also play with this http://www.theyrule.net/ http://www.theyrule.net/
  • mgkimsal 11y ago
• dmix 11y ago
  > and a nap room with a hammock and soothing palm tree murals on the wall This sounds like a great place to work. Outside of the phony hyper-positive posturing by management.
• jacalata 11y ago
  That sentence struck you as outlandish? It's completely true, and while I've never been to HubSpot it doesn't sound even very unusual for 'hip tech office': http://www.hubspot.com/company-news/home-sweet-home-hubspot-renews-lease-for-global-headquarters-in-cambridge http://www.hubspot.com/company-news/home-sweet-home-hubspot-...
• djfjdfnrjfnd 11y ago
  How do I get into the business of reputation management? I assume they pay you well?
• chris_wot 11y ago
  > I feel like in these scenarios he's incentivized to get outlandish PR for his book, so some of the things I'd take with a grain of salt--sentences like, "The offices bear a striking resemblance to the Montessori preschool that my kids attended: lots of bright basic colors, plenty of toys, and a nap room with a hammock and soothing palm tree murals on the wall." But there is probably a lot truth to his story as well. Surely this is clearly an observation? When I read this I read it as opinion, and a personal observation he had - after all, it speaks of his kids' preschool and it is a judgement he makes. This sort of comment is done in long-form journalism all the time. The fact you spotted it as subjective commentary almost immediately means it is commentary! The book he wrote is a commentary on his personal experiences with HubSpot, interspersed with his views. I honestly don't see where the issue is, it's still factual but as with any article or book like this the author is giving his considered view on the material he is writing about. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree, of course, but is it really to get PR for his book?
• deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
• jonathankoren 11y ago
  > I feel like in these scenarios he's incentivized to get outlandish PR for his book, so some of the things I'd take with a grain of salt--sentences like, "The offices bear a striking resemblance to the Montessori preschool that my kids attended: lots of bright basic colors, plenty of toys, and a nap room with a hammock and soothing palm tree murals on the wall." But there is probably a lot truth to his story as well. Sounds like Google. It's famously decorated in preschool chic.
• DDickson 11y ago
  I'm not informed enough to have an opinion on Dan as a person or on HubSpot, but this is the third article I've seen posted to HN that all pretty much say the same thing, and are all obvious attempts to sell his book. Why do these articles keep getting voted up?
• riveracct 11y ago
  A lot of tech offices do look like freaking playschools now. One I went to looked like a cat therapist's waiting room, with cartoons of fishes and cats on the walls.