6 ms·

> She was 35, had been with the company for four years, and was told without explanation by her 28-year-old manager that she had two weeks to get out. I think

> She was 35, had been with the company for four years, and was told without explanation by her 28-year-old manager that she had two weeks to get out. I think that's a bit funny that the author implies you can't be good as a manager at 28. Specially when you are writing an article about bias.

pascalo 11y ago
I think he doesn't need to imply it, firing someone without explanation is bad management, no matter how young or old you are.
- golergka 11y ago
  This is correct. However, it's still strane to mention ages in this context. Just replace age descriptions with race descriptions to see how weird and out of place that is. > She was white, had been with the company for four years, and was told without explanation by her latino manager that she had two weeks to get out.
  - halestock 11y ago
    Age implies wisdom and experience, which I think was the point he was trying to get across. Comparing it to race is just silly.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > Age implies wisdom and experience Age implies obsoleteness and poor health. (I can stereotype too!)
      - Dylan16807 11y ago
        Not in your 30s. If you're trying to prove halestock wrong you're doing a poor job.
    - pascalo 11y ago
      The way I read it he used the age and gender info in his comment to illustrate that it would be harder for the person to get a job. Hence it being extra cruel to use the weird lingo and act like it wouldn't be hard for her.
    - golergka 11y ago
      It does. However, it's the matter of how strong that causation is and how hard are you going to rely on it. Because if you think that someone in their 30s is likely to be be significantly more experienced and wise, it also means that you should think that someone in their 50s is likely to be significantly burned out and slow. My point is: the correlation (and underlying causation) is there, but it's not strong enough, compared to differences between individuals.
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    >> "Just replace age descriptions with race descriptions to see how weird and out of place that is." How is that in any way a sound analogy? Your age likely has an impact on your experience. More experience doesn't necessarily mean you're better at your job but it's a decent possibility. Race has no impact on performance at all.
    - golergka 11y ago
      Race does not impact perfomance, but there's a correlation between race and education, for example (because ages of institutial discrimination, of course). Do you think people should take this correlation into consideration when talking about others?
      - rhizome 11y ago
        I highly recommend double-checking your work on this line of thinking.
        bduerst 11y ago
        They're pointing out the flaws in the logic of biasing based on characteristics, of both race and age. Obviously nobody is going to discount a manager because of their race, but on that same coin people shouldn't discount the same individual because of their age.
- musesum 11y ago
  Either that or proactive lawyers. California is a no-cause state. Only when you state a cause, can it be used against you for bias. [Edit] Don't know about other states.
  - pascalo 11y ago
    To provide an outside US perspective, it's not that easy to fire someone in Germany, the UK or Australia. Once you're past the probation period, you'd probably have to get one or multiple sorts of negative reviews and written warnings from HR or your superiors before being let go, otherwise you'd have ground to sue for unfair dismissal. That, or you'd be given a redundancy package.
    - UK-AL 11y ago
      There's no such thing as probation period in law. It's a company specific thing. The laws the same if your own a probation period or not.
      - pascalo 11y ago
        In German law there is. In Australia unfair dismissal can only be claimed after 6 months of employment. Not really sure about the UK, but I am fairly sure it's not just cut throat firing like in the US, and you can claim unfair dismissal.
        DanBC 11y ago
        UK you can claim unfair dismissal after 2 years, unless there's Equalities Act stuff happening.
      - krzyk 11y ago
        In Poland there is such thing as probation in law, so you should specify what country are you talking about.
- wcummings 11y ago
  Giving an explanation publicly would harm their future employment chances. But people should be told privately why they're being fired, of course.
rrss1122 11y ago
I didn't get that from the article. The author's friend was 31 when she joined the company, not much older than her 28 year old manager. To me it illustrates the churn at the company. The 28-year old manager will probably be fired - excuse me I mean "graduated" - by a 20-something manager after a few years.
josh_carterPDX 11y ago
Having worked at a few startups I can relate to what the writer is saying (although I do agree the article is a bit slanted). It happens a lot in the tech world under the guise of "thinking differently" about management. I agree that age shouldn't matter, until you're 10-15 years older than your Manager who is completely out of their element, has no clue what they're doing, and you spend every day wondering how the fk they got the promotion in the first place.
- BurningFrog 11y ago
  That sounds like it's more about the manager having no clue than their age.
  - josh_carterPDX 11y ago
    But what does it say about those that put these people in a position of power?
    - fleitz 11y ago
      I haven't see many places that that only have incompetent managers and no incompetent employees. :) Or alternatively, what does it say about people who have seen this culture for 4 years and are still there?
      - josh_carterPDX 11y ago
        Yeah there's a balance. Everyone thinks a company has it all figured out until they work there and find out it's just like every other company struggling to figure stuff out.
        fleitz 11y ago
        Definitely, once you've been around the block a few times you realize that it's the same everywhere. Eventually, you just find the biggest pay cheque you can, and do the routine of putting on your coconut headphones, sit down at your tiki desk and chair and sip your mochas in peace as you wait for the morning calisthenics meeting to begin, wondering what exactly the difference between waterfall, agile, tdd, etc actually is because all you've ever seen anywhere is tiki driven development.
reviseddamage 11y ago
it's not in the least bit funny and the author is not implying that a 28 year old can't be a good manager. The author is comparing 1980's, 1990's tech work and now, and is making a point that amongst other observations, its also a new phenomenon for a younger person now in the tech world to be a manager to older staffers.
bduerst 11y ago
I think they were trying to imply that the 28 year old was an "undertrained" manager: >UNFORTUNATELY, working at a start-up all too often involves getting bossed around by undertrained (or untrained) managers and fired on a whim. Bias based on age, race and gender is rampant, as is sexual harassment.
ThomPete 11y ago
You can but it's extremely, extremely rare for the very simple fact that your primary skills as a manager is people skills and the ability to relate to other peoples situation. Something you normally won't be as developed at that point. At 28 you have more experience than a 18 year old, but not much and def not enough to be able to relate to a 35 year old person in most cases. So not sure I find it ironic. Rather I can relate as I have seen my share of managers and been myself for the last 22 years. And yes older managers have problems too :)
- xzi 11y ago
  I agree with everything you say. However, in my personal experience, the best manager I've had was 25 when I was 30. This manager realized he didn't really know much. So he stayed out of my way and let me make the technical decisions while he ran interference with the directors and VPs. Never had a more smooth working environment before or since.
  - horsebattery 11y ago
    I think for average people, such as myself, age is definitely an advantage in being a manager. I tried it at 24 and hated it, felt totally out of my depth. Having been through and been humbled by many life experiences means I can show more empathy and understanding. On the other hand there are many very switched on young people, so like always we should ignore age and judge people on their merits.
  - bucma 11y ago
    He really understood his role well. Unfortunately, this is pretty rare now.
  - hcayless 11y ago
    Just about the worst handicap a manager can have is insecurity. And unfortunately this is something I've seen in most of the people I've seen promoted to management when young. The best managers don't assume they need to be "better" than the people they manage.
  - 11y ago
luckydata 11y ago
I'm not much older than that, but the average maturity of 28 year olds is not great. Putting lives in the hands of people that should still be learning the ropes is reckless and cruel. Young managers (and I used to be one too) are the worst part of the startup culture, people with no training, inclination or predisposition for people management making others unproductive and ruining careers. As a sector we should think hard about how we're handling ourselves because there will be nothing left a few years from now if we don't start working for the long run.
- bb88 11y ago
  I, for one, would like to know if you screwed people over as a young manager. That would make rather a good blog post.
- bb88 11y ago
  I, for one, would like to know if you screwed people over as a young manager. That would make rather a good blog post.
x0x0 11y ago
it seemed to me like Lyons is implying the manager is callow
bb88 11y ago
I don't think he was trying to imply that at all. The culture of youth means you're going to have some weird things like an older worker being fired by a younger one.

pascalo 11y ago

I think he doesn't need to imply it, firing someone without explanation is bad management, no matter how young or old you are.

golergka 11y ago
This is correct. However, it's still strane to mention ages in this context. Just replace age descriptions with race descriptions to see how weird and out of place that is. > She was white, had been with the company for four years, and was told without explanation by her latino manager that she had two weeks to get out.
- halestock 11y ago
  Age implies wisdom and experience, which I think was the point he was trying to get across. Comparing it to race is just silly.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > Age implies wisdom and experience Age implies obsoleteness and poor health. (I can stereotype too!)
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      Not in your 30s. If you're trying to prove halestock wrong you're doing a poor job.
  - pascalo 11y ago
    The way I read it he used the age and gender info in his comment to illustrate that it would be harder for the person to get a job. Hence it being extra cruel to use the weird lingo and act like it wouldn't be hard for her.
  - golergka 11y ago
    It does. However, it's the matter of how strong that causation is and how hard are you going to rely on it. Because if you think that someone in their 30s is likely to be be significantly more experienced and wise, it also means that you should think that someone in their 50s is likely to be significantly burned out and slow. My point is: the correlation (and underlying causation) is there, but it's not strong enough, compared to differences between individuals.
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  >> "Just replace age descriptions with race descriptions to see how weird and out of place that is." How is that in any way a sound analogy? Your age likely has an impact on your experience. More experience doesn't necessarily mean you're better at your job but it's a decent possibility. Race has no impact on performance at all.
  - golergka 11y ago
    Race does not impact perfomance, but there's a correlation between race and education, for example (because ages of institutial discrimination, of course). Do you think people should take this correlation into consideration when talking about others?
    - rhizome 11y ago
      I highly recommend double-checking your work on this line of thinking.
      - bduerst 11y ago
        They're pointing out the flaws in the logic of biasing based on characteristics, of both race and age. Obviously nobody is going to discount a manager because of their race, but on that same coin people shouldn't discount the same individual because of their age.
musesum 11y ago
Either that or proactive lawyers. California is a no-cause state. Only when you state a cause, can it be used against you for bias. [Edit] Don't know about other states.
- pascalo 11y ago
  To provide an outside US perspective, it's not that easy to fire someone in Germany, the UK or Australia. Once you're past the probation period, you'd probably have to get one or multiple sorts of negative reviews and written warnings from HR or your superiors before being let go, otherwise you'd have ground to sue for unfair dismissal. That, or you'd be given a redundancy package.
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    There's no such thing as probation period in law. It's a company specific thing. The laws the same if your own a probation period or not.
    - pascalo 11y ago
      In German law there is. In Australia unfair dismissal can only be claimed after 6 months of employment. Not really sure about the UK, but I am fairly sure it's not just cut throat firing like in the US, and you can claim unfair dismissal.
      - DanBC 11y ago
        UK you can claim unfair dismissal after 2 years, unless there's Equalities Act stuff happening.
    - krzyk 11y ago
      In Poland there is such thing as probation in law, so you should specify what country are you talking about.
wcummings 11y ago
Giving an explanation publicly would harm their future employment chances. But people should be told privately why they're being fired, of course.

rrss1122 11y ago

I didn't get that from the article. The author's friend was 31 when she joined the company, not much older than her 28 year old manager. To me it illustrates the churn at the company. The 28-year old manager will probably be fired - excuse me I mean "graduated" - by a 20-something manager after a few years.

josh_carterPDX 11y ago

Having worked at a few startups I can relate to what the writer is saying (although I do agree the article is a bit slanted). It happens a lot in the tech world under the guise of "thinking differently" about management. I agree that age shouldn't matter, until you're 10-15 years older than your Manager who is completely out of their element, has no clue what they're doing, and you spend every day wondering how the fk they got the promotion in the first place.

BurningFrog 11y ago
That sounds like it's more about the manager having no clue than their age.
- josh_carterPDX 11y ago
  But what does it say about those that put these people in a position of power?
  - fleitz 11y ago
    I haven't see many places that that only have incompetent managers and no incompetent employees. :) Or alternatively, what does it say about people who have seen this culture for 4 years and are still there?
    - josh_carterPDX 11y ago
      Yeah there's a balance. Everyone thinks a company has it all figured out until they work there and find out it's just like every other company struggling to figure stuff out.
      - fleitz 11y ago
        Definitely, once you've been around the block a few times you realize that it's the same everywhere. Eventually, you just find the biggest pay cheque you can, and do the routine of putting on your coconut headphones, sit down at your tiki desk and chair and sip your mochas in peace as you wait for the morning calisthenics meeting to begin, wondering what exactly the difference between waterfall, agile, tdd, etc actually is because all you've ever seen anywhere is tiki driven development.

reviseddamage 11y ago

it's not in the least bit funny and the author is not implying that a 28 year old can't be a good manager. The author is comparing 1980's, 1990's tech work and now, and is making a point that amongst other observations, its also a new phenomenon for a younger person now in the tech world to be a manager to older staffers.

bduerst 11y ago

I think they were trying to imply that the 28 year old was an "undertrained" manager: >UNFORTUNATELY, working at a start-up all too often involves getting bossed around by undertrained (or untrained) managers and fired on a whim. Bias based on age, race and gender is rampant, as is sexual harassment.

ThomPete 11y ago

You can but it's extremely, extremely rare for the very simple fact that your primary skills as a manager is people skills and the ability to relate to other peoples situation. Something you normally won't be as developed at that point. At 28 you have more experience than a 18 year old, but not much and def not enough to be able to relate to a 35 year old person in most cases. So not sure I find it ironic. Rather I can relate as I have seen my share of managers and been myself for the last 22 years. And yes older managers have problems too :)

xzi 11y ago
I agree with everything you say. However, in my personal experience, the best manager I've had was 25 when I was 30. This manager realized he didn't really know much. So he stayed out of my way and let me make the technical decisions while he ran interference with the directors and VPs. Never had a more smooth working environment before or since.
- horsebattery 11y ago
  I think for average people, such as myself, age is definitely an advantage in being a manager. I tried it at 24 and hated it, felt totally out of my depth. Having been through and been humbled by many life experiences means I can show more empathy and understanding. On the other hand there are many very switched on young people, so like always we should ignore age and judge people on their merits.
- bucma 11y ago
  He really understood his role well. Unfortunately, this is pretty rare now.
- hcayless 11y ago
  Just about the worst handicap a manager can have is insecurity. And unfortunately this is something I've seen in most of the people I've seen promoted to management when young. The best managers don't assume they need to be "better" than the people they manage.
- 11y ago

luckydata 11y ago

I'm not much older than that, but the average maturity of 28 year olds is not great. Putting lives in the hands of people that should still be learning the ropes is reckless and cruel. Young managers (and I used to be one too) are the worst part of the startup culture, people with no training, inclination or predisposition for people management making others unproductive and ruining careers. As a sector we should think hard about how we're handling ourselves because there will be nothing left a few years from now if we don't start working for the long run.

bb88 11y ago
I, for one, would like to know if you screwed people over as a young manager. That would make rather a good blog post.
bb88 11y ago
I, for one, would like to know if you screwed people over as a young manager. That would make rather a good blog post.

x0x0 11y ago

it seemed to me like Lyons is implying the manager is callow

bb88 11y ago

I don't think he was trying to imply that at all. The culture of youth means you're going to have some weird things like an older worker being fired by a younger one.