5 ms·

Canadians may soon need a visa to enter the EU

62 points by kspaans 11y ago

fijal 11y ago
I think bigger news here is for US citizens. US consistently denied visa-free travel for a lot of EU countries, including poland
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  comeuppance?
  - jerf 11y ago
    That's an egocentric view. The winds of the world are shifting and it isn't all about the US. It has played its part in the drama, but it isn't even remotely the only player or even necessarily the prime mover anymore.
    - adventured 11y ago
      I find that very interesting. What winds exactly do you think have changed such that the US isn't the prime mover now? When I look around the world, I don't see any reason to agree with your premise. The US has an $18 trillion economy - 80% larger than China - with 43% of all global wealth, the fifth highest GDP per capita, and dominates militarily almost as much as it ever has (outside of the brief stretch from 1990-2003 when Russia was particularly weak). I look at Latin America, Brazil is in a depression that is worsening (20 year set-back at least), and Venezuela has collapsed. So there's no challenge there from changing winds. Most of Africa is getting better gradually, and that's tremendous news for them, however that's no challenge to the US prime mover status. Japan is in much worse shape relative to the US than it was 25 years ago. In about six or seven years, the US will have double the GDP per capita of Japan, as they continue to aggressively debase the Yen to try to remain solvent. South Korea is no stronger relative to the US than they were in the mid 1990s. There are no other challengers to the US outside of China in Asia. India is rising, but they're no challenge to the dominant position the US has in the world. Maybe in 30 years if everything goes really well, they'll challenge China as an Asian power. Singapore has a great economy, but they're tiny. Vietnam and several other Asian countries will likely keep improving, but they're mostly a regional challenge for China, the US will benefit from them improving (it will take industry away from China). Half of Europe is either broken economically or otherwise very poor. I could go down through each country and lay out their economic and political problems, but it's not necessary. Most of Europe has lost ground relative to the US on economy and military, that includes France, Spain, Italy, Britain. Overall the US is stronger today economically and militarily compared to Europe, than it was a decade ago. Where's the wind shift when it comes to Europe vs the US? There has been none. The Eurozone for example is a disaster, that hasn't seen economic growth in nearly a decade. Scandinavia is doing ok (other than their vast household debt problems and Finland's depression), but what else? And they're not a challenge to the US. Germany has been unable to grow its economy almost at all since 2008 (the US has almost added an economy the size of Germany in that time). Russia is a non-issue as a challenger to the US. They're extremely weak now, with oil on the way out permanently, which will cripple their fossil fuel dependent economy for the next several decades at least. Their economy is 1/12th the size of the US economy now. Russia is now a regional player, a thorn in the side of Western Europe, with a median income that has fallen below much of Eastern Europe. I go down the list, country by country, examining the situation, and the relative strength of each compared to the US. What winds have changed?
      - jerf 11y ago
        Listing all the ways in which various bits of the world relates to the US is entirely missing my point. All the bits of the world relate to each other directly as well. Not all of those relations are the US's fault or responsibility. Visa decisions are not being made around the world solely in relation to the current state of the United States. In fact, despite occasional rhetoric to the contrary, the US probably the least of concerns relating to those decisions; nobody is facing immanent social changes caused by incoming US immigration or fearing terrorist attacks from US citizens. (You can and should debate whether the US government's foreign policy is good or bad, but on the whole US citizens are individually well-behaved.) For example, Shengen is not collapsing because the US is out there agitating for it to come down. Oh, sure, trace the root causes and responsibility weaves in and out of US actions, but it's a complex tapestry and, again, a bit egocentric to specially privilege US actions in that rich tapestry.
        adventured 11y ago
        I don't disagree with most of what you said. I consider the US to be merely one of the many big influences in the world, and it's blatantly the dominant one by a wide margin - by almost any metric we can name. However I fail to see how the US has a weaker position in terms of its dominance / prime mover status, than it did 10, 20, or 30 years ago. There has been no actual fundamental shift. For example, the US share of global GDP is unchanged over the last 30 years - despite China's vast GDP gains over that time (meaning the US had to grow a lot to keep its position, while other former major powers lost ground). China has essentially taken the place of the USSR as a strength counter to the US. Calling something egocentric isn't an actual counter-point (what does it have to do with whether something is factually correct or not?), it's an argument from intimidation. The only purpose it serves is to try to embarrass the other side of the discussion (since many people consider ego to be shameful; I obviously don't agree with that).
- skocznymroczny 11y ago
  Note that for most EU countries US offers visa waiver, which still requires filling out some forms online before the trip and a payment. US citizens can just come to EU whenever they want to.
Grue3 11y ago
Sounds reasonable. It's very difficult to get US or Canada visa in some countries. Certainly harder than getting a EU visa.
- osweiller 11y ago
  It would be an entirely spiteful act, however -- the only consequence would be a reduction in tourist dollars to Europe. Which is why it seems incredibly unlikely this would pass a EU general vote. Canada and the United States have a refugee pact. Certain, specific countries in the EU have been a source of large numbers of bogus refugee claimants that cost considerable time and money (Canada received 23 times more "Hungarian refugees" than the rest of the world combined in 2010). Hence, a visa requirement. Spitefully saying "we'll do it too" is nonsensical -- Canada and the United States are sovereign countries, so it's not going to be received well. EDIT: It seems that my account is dead. Yet another victim who dared to disagree with the great tptacek.
  - dang 11y ago
    > EDIT: It seems that my account is dead. Yet another victim who dared to disagree with the great tptacek Please don't post petty stuff like this. Your account's fine, but it won't stay fine if you continue to break the HN guidelines. That's no doubt why previous comments of yours were flagged (by users, not moderators), and it has nothing to do with disagreeing with someone.
  - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
    The EU has a huge internal market and attract tourists from everywhere (2 of the top 3 visited countries are European: Spain and France). I don't think those tourist dollars are a problem when solidarity among EU countries is at play. Take yours somewhere else.
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  It doesn't sound relevant, the current status quo is there isn't a visa required (this is between US/Canada and the EU)
akhatri_aus 11y ago
I'm not sure why the Romanian & Bulgarian issue is being mentioned. Another part of it is Canadians and Americans have access to the EU where you can just get there without forms or paying anything whereas you have to fill in a silly form and pay a bit of cash to go the other way. Semantically it's not termed a visa but it's just like one so this is the EU trying to put in a silly form and small payment as a reciprocal measure.
- officialchicken 11y ago
  > and pay a bit of cash to go the other way. Citation, please? Travel/tourist visas for visitors staying less than 90 days may use the Visa Waiver Program [0] to enter the USA free of charge. [0] https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-...
  - 0x0 11y ago
    It costs $14 to apply for an ESTA online which is a pre-requisite to use the VWP, and you have to renew it for another $14 every 2 years or when your passport is renewed, whichever comes first. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1072/kw/esta/ https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1072/kw/esta/
  - akhatri_aus 11y ago
    There's a $14 fee to the US, $7 to Canada alongside the form. [0] http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/frequently-asked-questions-about-visa-waiver-program-vwp-and-electronic-system-travel http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/frequently-... [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1056&top=16 http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1056...
    - klipt 11y ago
      Yeah an actual US tourist visa costs $160 (plus any reciprocity fees), $14 is peanuts by comparison.
puppetmaster3 11y ago
Yes, and Turkey (80 million middle eastern people) will get EU membership. Merkel cut a deal w/ Turkey to take back immigrants in return for EU membership. link: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUSKCN0SC08B20151019 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-tu...
- semigroupoid 11y ago
  Even if Merkel had made such a promise (which she didn't), she does not get to decide who becomes a member of the EU. The human rights situation in Turkey makes it impossible for them to join the EU.
- TillE 11y ago
  Only in Erdogan's dreams. There are many many factors which prevent Turkey from joining the EU, and they have only become worse since the subject was initially raised years ago.
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  This is unlikely, many countries have already pledged to veto it.
- mavdi 11y ago
  You should try twitter. Lots of like minded people.
- 21 11y ago
  That's not how EU extension works. Even if Turkey solves it's human rights issues, which are a big blocker right now, it still takes a single EU country to veto Turkey accession.
- vidarh 11y ago
  As much as I'd personally be all for giving Turkey EU membership eventually, with Turkey's current trajectory they are decades away from getting it, and Erdogan seems intent on reducing their chances. Even if Merkel tried to push for Turkish membership, it'd take years of negotiations and further years of reforms before anything could happen. EDIT: Note that what the article actually says is that she has offered to help accelerate the membership discussions. But even if Germany pushes to ensure talks with Turkey are fast-tracked, the ultimate thing that prevents Turkish EU membership is that Turkey needs to carry out extensive reforms - both political and economical - as well as convincing several EU member states not to veto membership before there's any way they will be allowed entry. Even if the negotiations concluded tomorrow, it'd take years - probably a decade or more - for Turkey to complete the required reforms (and that assumes the government would even want to carry out these reforms, which Erdogan seems totally uninterested in). I think it's more likely membership will take on the order of 15-20 years.
Kequc 11y ago
Romania and Bulgaria both control their own borders, they are not members of the Schengen Zone. Therefore this has absolutely nothing to do with an exchange of visa free travel. A fair exchange would be that Romania and Bulgaria both revoke visa free travel... although they don't offer it in the first place. It sounds like the EU is trying to throw its weight around in order to gain political favour with neighbour states. I hope everyone says no. The EU would see its tourism from more affluent countries plummet, cutting off the nose to spite the face. It's political posturing and probably nothing would come out of it if everyone did say no.
- 21 11y ago
  What do you mean for Romania and Bulgaria to revoke visa free travel? Romanian and Bulgarian citizens can travel all over EU, including into the Schengen Zone, without a visa. They are only subject to a Passport/ID check. And EU citizens can travel to Romania/Bulgaria without visas. So what do you mean?
  - Kequc 11y ago
    I mean coming from Canada, both countries require a visa. It's the same the other way around, but the EU is pressuring Canada apparently to offer visa free travel to them both. Why wouldn't such a thing be worked out between the individual countries involved.
    - germanier 11y ago
      Because the EU member states decided to lift this issue to the EU level via Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. The EU is about harmonizing legislation after all and regulating external borders is a very important part of what the EU does.
      - Kequc 11y ago
        > regulating external borders is a very important part of what the EU does. Whoa man. Lets not open up that can of worms here, lets try and keep the topic about Canada eh/ I think telling another country who they must allow visa free travel to is similar to telling them what laws they need to follow. Canada isn't a member of the EU, there never was any such agreement. An EU council regulation should have little to do with them.
chvid 11y ago
EU needs to thread more careful here and solve this problem rather than accuse Canada for arrogance. If visa exemption is messed up with Canada (and even the US!) then Britain voting for exiting the EU becomes considerably more likely. After all Britain (and other Western European states) still sees itself as closer tied to Canada, US, Australia than to Romania.
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  The UK isn't in Schengen so it's not part of this. They're not putting visas up (or don't intend to) for Canadians or Americans. There's a bit of a bromance going on for the anglophone countries.
  - raphman_ 11y ago
    This has nothing to do with the Schengen treaty. Schengen == "there are no passport controls at border crossings" Visa Waiver Program == "you do not need to apply for a visa in the destination country's embassy"
    - germanier 11y ago
      While it doesn't have anything to do with Schengen directly, the UK and Ireland still got an opt-out of the regulation at hand as they do with most related issues. They are not effected by any of this.
    - akhatri_aus 11y ago
      The EU is negotiating on the behalf of future and current Schengen area members. While you have numbed it down it is simply that the Visa Waiver Program is tough on Romania and Bulgaria and also has a fee for the ETA whereas there is no such thing to go to the Schengen area from Canada or the USA. So yes it does have to do with Schengen, but not the treaty specifically as it doesn't involve inter EU travel.
    - vidarh 11y ago
      Schengen also regulates a shared visa policy for all members and all countries that are prospective members. This affects all EU countries other than the UK and Ireland, and indirectly affects several non-EU countries. E.g. Norway applies Schengen visa rules as a Schengen member, and non-Schengen countries that are prospective EU members works towards harmonising their visa rules with Schengen because it is a requirement of EU membership.
pj_mukh 11y ago
I don't mind paying a nominal fee to enter the EU. Hopefully, this happens at the border. Mailing in my passport to a black box EU embassy and waiting an unspecified amount of time is what annoys me about visa processes. I'm also not afraid of "Romanian and Bulgarian hordes" or whatever tired immigrant trope was used to not open the borders to those two countries. Work it out peeps!
- cm2187 11y ago
  Visas usually involve having to queue at an embassy.
  - akhatri_aus 11y ago
    It'll likely be online just like the US/Canada eTA, so no queuing at the border or at an Embassy. It's only there because the US/Canada has it, not for any other reason other than reciprocity.
cm2187 11y ago
Always amusing to see the US lecturing European countries on how they don't welcome migrants well enough, and then see that these additional visa requirement for "bad european countries" which population they do not see coming on US soil...
alister 11y ago
Since there's lots of discussion here about overstays, here's the US government report for overstays broken down by country: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/FY%2015%20DHS%20Entry%20and%20Exit%20Overstay%20Report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/FY%2015... Some highlights from the category of FY 2015 Overstay rates for nonimmigrants with B-1/B-2 visas admitted to the United States for business or pleasure via air and sea POEs for non-VWP Countries (excluding Canada and Mexico): Bulgaria 1.48% Romania 1.81% Average of all countries 1.60% The highest rates are Bhutan 23.98% and Djibouti 26.80%. One important factor that the report doesn't give is the difficulty of getting the visa in first place. Some countries have a much higher visa rejection rate by American consulates than others. Those would be interesting statistics to see. I couldn't find a similar report for Canada, but I'd expect the proportions by country to be similar, but perhaps higher overall for Canada since Canada is slightly easier to enter than the US.
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  The correct column is the other one, 'Total overstay rate'. Also those stats for the Romania and Bulgaria are after refusing over 15% of all Visas applied for, which is sort of a filter that prevents the number from being dramatically higher. Under the VWP there would be no such filter. The other country to mention is Poland.
  - alister 11y ago
    > The correct column is the other one, 'Total overstay rate'. Yes, you're right. I used the column that indicates "overstayed the visa and are still in the US as far as the DHS knows", whereas the Total Overstay is sum of those still in the US plus those who departed. Here are the correct figures since I can't modify my earlier comment: Bulgaria 1.74% Romania 2.06% Poland 1.49% (since you mentioned it) Average of all non-VWP countries 1.74% The highest rates are Bhutan 24.89% and Djibouti 27.67%. And for comparison: Average of all VWP countries 0.73% The highest rates in VWP countries are Hungary 2.92% and Slovakia 2.36%. > Also those stats for the Romania and Bulgaria are after refusing over 15% of all Visas applied for. I'm interested to know where you got that figure? If anything, I would have thought that US visa refusal rates would be even higher (varying by country of course).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

62 points by kspaans 11y ago

fijal 11y ago

I think bigger news here is for US citizens. US consistently denied visa-free travel for a lot of EU countries, including poland

JustSomeNobody 11y ago
comeuppance?
- jerf 11y ago
  That's an egocentric view. The winds of the world are shifting and it isn't all about the US. It has played its part in the drama, but it isn't even remotely the only player or even necessarily the prime mover anymore.
  - adventured 11y ago
    I find that very interesting. What winds exactly do you think have changed such that the US isn't the prime mover now? When I look around the world, I don't see any reason to agree with your premise. The US has an $18 trillion economy - 80% larger than China - with 43% of all global wealth, the fifth highest GDP per capita, and dominates militarily almost as much as it ever has (outside of the brief stretch from 1990-2003 when Russia was particularly weak). I look at Latin America, Brazil is in a depression that is worsening (20 year set-back at least), and Venezuela has collapsed. So there's no challenge there from changing winds. Most of Africa is getting better gradually, and that's tremendous news for them, however that's no challenge to the US prime mover status. Japan is in much worse shape relative to the US than it was 25 years ago. In about six or seven years, the US will have double the GDP per capita of Japan, as they continue to aggressively debase the Yen to try to remain solvent. South Korea is no stronger relative to the US than they were in the mid 1990s. There are no other challengers to the US outside of China in Asia. India is rising, but they're no challenge to the dominant position the US has in the world. Maybe in 30 years if everything goes really well, they'll challenge China as an Asian power. Singapore has a great economy, but they're tiny. Vietnam and several other Asian countries will likely keep improving, but they're mostly a regional challenge for China, the US will benefit from them improving (it will take industry away from China). Half of Europe is either broken economically or otherwise very poor. I could go down through each country and lay out their economic and political problems, but it's not necessary. Most of Europe has lost ground relative to the US on economy and military, that includes France, Spain, Italy, Britain. Overall the US is stronger today economically and militarily compared to Europe, than it was a decade ago. Where's the wind shift when it comes to Europe vs the US? There has been none. The Eurozone for example is a disaster, that hasn't seen economic growth in nearly a decade. Scandinavia is doing ok (other than their vast household debt problems and Finland's depression), but what else? And they're not a challenge to the US. Germany has been unable to grow its economy almost at all since 2008 (the US has almost added an economy the size of Germany in that time). Russia is a non-issue as a challenger to the US. They're extremely weak now, with oil on the way out permanently, which will cripple their fossil fuel dependent economy for the next several decades at least. Their economy is 1/12th the size of the US economy now. Russia is now a regional player, a thorn in the side of Western Europe, with a median income that has fallen below much of Eastern Europe. I go down the list, country by country, examining the situation, and the relative strength of each compared to the US. What winds have changed?
    - jerf 11y ago
      Listing all the ways in which various bits of the world relates to the US is entirely missing my point. All the bits of the world relate to each other directly as well. Not all of those relations are the US's fault or responsibility. Visa decisions are not being made around the world solely in relation to the current state of the United States. In fact, despite occasional rhetoric to the contrary, the US probably the least of concerns relating to those decisions; nobody is facing immanent social changes caused by incoming US immigration or fearing terrorist attacks from US citizens. (You can and should debate whether the US government's foreign policy is good or bad, but on the whole US citizens are individually well-behaved.) For example, Shengen is not collapsing because the US is out there agitating for it to come down. Oh, sure, trace the root causes and responsibility weaves in and out of US actions, but it's a complex tapestry and, again, a bit egocentric to specially privilege US actions in that rich tapestry.
      - adventured 11y ago
        I don't disagree with most of what you said. I consider the US to be merely one of the many big influences in the world, and it's blatantly the dominant one by a wide margin - by almost any metric we can name. However I fail to see how the US has a weaker position in terms of its dominance / prime mover status, than it did 10, 20, or 30 years ago. There has been no actual fundamental shift. For example, the US share of global GDP is unchanged over the last 30 years - despite China's vast GDP gains over that time (meaning the US had to grow a lot to keep its position, while other former major powers lost ground). China has essentially taken the place of the USSR as a strength counter to the US. Calling something egocentric isn't an actual counter-point (what does it have to do with whether something is factually correct or not?), it's an argument from intimidation. The only purpose it serves is to try to embarrass the other side of the discussion (since many people consider ego to be shameful; I obviously don't agree with that).
skocznymroczny 11y ago
Note that for most EU countries US offers visa waiver, which still requires filling out some forms online before the trip and a payment. US citizens can just come to EU whenever they want to.

Grue3 11y ago

Sounds reasonable. It's very difficult to get US or Canada visa in some countries. Certainly harder than getting a EU visa.

osweiller 11y ago
It would be an entirely spiteful act, however -- the only consequence would be a reduction in tourist dollars to Europe. Which is why it seems incredibly unlikely this would pass a EU general vote. Canada and the United States have a refugee pact. Certain, specific countries in the EU have been a source of large numbers of bogus refugee claimants that cost considerable time and money (Canada received 23 times more "Hungarian refugees" than the rest of the world combined in 2010). Hence, a visa requirement. Spitefully saying "we'll do it too" is nonsensical -- Canada and the United States are sovereign countries, so it's not going to be received well. EDIT: It seems that my account is dead. Yet another victim who dared to disagree with the great tptacek.
- dang 11y ago
  > EDIT: It seems that my account is dead. Yet another victim who dared to disagree with the great tptacek Please don't post petty stuff like this. Your account's fine, but it won't stay fine if you continue to break the HN guidelines. That's no doubt why previous comments of yours were flagged (by users, not moderators), and it has nothing to do with disagreeing with someone.
- NetStrikeForce 11y ago
  The EU has a huge internal market and attract tourists from everywhere (2 of the top 3 visited countries are European: Spain and France). I don't think those tourist dollars are a problem when solidarity among EU countries is at play. Take yours somewhere else.
akhatri_aus 11y ago
It doesn't sound relevant, the current status quo is there isn't a visa required (this is between US/Canada and the EU)

akhatri_aus 11y ago

I'm not sure why the Romanian & Bulgarian issue is being mentioned. Another part of it is Canadians and Americans have access to the EU where you can just get there without forms or paying anything whereas you have to fill in a silly form and pay a bit of cash to go the other way. Semantically it's not termed a visa but it's just like one so this is the EU trying to put in a silly form and small payment as a reciprocal measure.

officialchicken 11y ago
> and pay a bit of cash to go the other way. Citation, please? Travel/tourist visas for visitors staying less than 90 days may use the Visa Waiver Program [0] to enter the USA free of charge. [0] https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-...
- 0x0 11y ago
  It costs $14 to apply for an ESTA online which is a pre-requisite to use the VWP, and you have to renew it for another $14 every 2 years or when your passport is renewed, whichever comes first. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1072/kw/esta/ https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1072/kw/esta/
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  There's a $14 fee to the US, $7 to Canada alongside the form. [0] http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/frequently-asked-questions-about-visa-waiver-program-vwp-and-electronic-system-travel http://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/frequently-... [1] http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1056&top=16 http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1056...
  - klipt 11y ago
    Yeah an actual US tourist visa costs $160 (plus any reciprocity fees), $14 is peanuts by comparison.

puppetmaster3 11y ago

Yes, and Turkey (80 million middle eastern people) will get EU membership. Merkel cut a deal w/ Turkey to take back immigrants in return for EU membership. link: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUSKCN0SC08B20151019 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-germany-tu...

semigroupoid 11y ago
Even if Merkel had made such a promise (which she didn't), she does not get to decide who becomes a member of the EU. The human rights situation in Turkey makes it impossible for them to join the EU.
TillE 11y ago
Only in Erdogan's dreams. There are many many factors which prevent Turkey from joining the EU, and they have only become worse since the subject was initially raised years ago.
akhatri_aus 11y ago
This is unlikely, many countries have already pledged to veto it.
mavdi 11y ago
You should try twitter. Lots of like minded people.
21 11y ago
That's not how EU extension works. Even if Turkey solves it's human rights issues, which are a big blocker right now, it still takes a single EU country to veto Turkey accession.
vidarh 11y ago
As much as I'd personally be all for giving Turkey EU membership eventually, with Turkey's current trajectory they are decades away from getting it, and Erdogan seems intent on reducing their chances. Even if Merkel tried to push for Turkish membership, it'd take years of negotiations and further years of reforms before anything could happen. EDIT: Note that what the article actually says is that she has offered to help accelerate the membership discussions. But even if Germany pushes to ensure talks with Turkey are fast-tracked, the ultimate thing that prevents Turkish EU membership is that Turkey needs to carry out extensive reforms - both political and economical - as well as convincing several EU member states not to veto membership before there's any way they will be allowed entry. Even if the negotiations concluded tomorrow, it'd take years - probably a decade or more - for Turkey to complete the required reforms (and that assumes the government would even want to carry out these reforms, which Erdogan seems totally uninterested in). I think it's more likely membership will take on the order of 15-20 years.

Kequc 11y ago

Romania and Bulgaria both control their own borders, they are not members of the Schengen Zone. Therefore this has absolutely nothing to do with an exchange of visa free travel. A fair exchange would be that Romania and Bulgaria both revoke visa free travel... although they don't offer it in the first place. It sounds like the EU is trying to throw its weight around in order to gain political favour with neighbour states. I hope everyone says no. The EU would see its tourism from more affluent countries plummet, cutting off the nose to spite the face. It's political posturing and probably nothing would come out of it if everyone did say no.

21 11y ago
What do you mean for Romania and Bulgaria to revoke visa free travel? Romanian and Bulgarian citizens can travel all over EU, including into the Schengen Zone, without a visa. They are only subject to a Passport/ID check. And EU citizens can travel to Romania/Bulgaria without visas. So what do you mean?
- Kequc 11y ago
  I mean coming from Canada, both countries require a visa. It's the same the other way around, but the EU is pressuring Canada apparently to offer visa free travel to them both. Why wouldn't such a thing be worked out between the individual countries involved.
  - germanier 11y ago
    Because the EU member states decided to lift this issue to the EU level via Council Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. The EU is about harmonizing legislation after all and regulating external borders is a very important part of what the EU does.
    - Kequc 11y ago
      > regulating external borders is a very important part of what the EU does. Whoa man. Lets not open up that can of worms here, lets try and keep the topic about Canada eh/ I think telling another country who they must allow visa free travel to is similar to telling them what laws they need to follow. Canada isn't a member of the EU, there never was any such agreement. An EU council regulation should have little to do with them.

chvid 11y ago

EU needs to thread more careful here and solve this problem rather than accuse Canada for arrogance. If visa exemption is messed up with Canada (and even the US!) then Britain voting for exiting the EU becomes considerably more likely. After all Britain (and other Western European states) still sees itself as closer tied to Canada, US, Australia than to Romania.

akhatri_aus 11y ago
The UK isn't in Schengen so it's not part of this. They're not putting visas up (or don't intend to) for Canadians or Americans. There's a bit of a bromance going on for the anglophone countries.
- raphman_ 11y ago
  This has nothing to do with the Schengen treaty. Schengen == "there are no passport controls at border crossings" Visa Waiver Program == "you do not need to apply for a visa in the destination country's embassy"
  - germanier 11y ago
    While it doesn't have anything to do with Schengen directly, the UK and Ireland still got an opt-out of the regulation at hand as they do with most related issues. They are not effected by any of this.
  - akhatri_aus 11y ago
    The EU is negotiating on the behalf of future and current Schengen area members. While you have numbed it down it is simply that the Visa Waiver Program is tough on Romania and Bulgaria and also has a fee for the ETA whereas there is no such thing to go to the Schengen area from Canada or the USA. So yes it does have to do with Schengen, but not the treaty specifically as it doesn't involve inter EU travel.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    Schengen also regulates a shared visa policy for all members and all countries that are prospective members. This affects all EU countries other than the UK and Ireland, and indirectly affects several non-EU countries. E.g. Norway applies Schengen visa rules as a Schengen member, and non-Schengen countries that are prospective EU members works towards harmonising their visa rules with Schengen because it is a requirement of EU membership.

pj_mukh 11y ago

I don't mind paying a nominal fee to enter the EU. Hopefully, this happens at the border. Mailing in my passport to a black box EU embassy and waiting an unspecified amount of time is what annoys me about visa processes. I'm also not afraid of "Romanian and Bulgarian hordes" or whatever tired immigrant trope was used to not open the borders to those two countries. Work it out peeps!

cm2187 11y ago
Visas usually involve having to queue at an embassy.
- akhatri_aus 11y ago
  It'll likely be online just like the US/Canada eTA, so no queuing at the border or at an Embassy. It's only there because the US/Canada has it, not for any other reason other than reciprocity.

cm2187 11y ago

Always amusing to see the US lecturing European countries on how they don't welcome migrants well enough, and then see that these additional visa requirement for "bad european countries" which population they do not see coming on US soil...

alister 11y ago

Since there's lots of discussion here about overstays, here's the US government report for overstays broken down by country: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/FY%2015%20DHS%20Entry%20and%20Exit%20Overstay%20Report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/FY%2015... Some highlights from the category of FY 2015 Overstay rates for nonimmigrants with B-1/B-2 visas admitted to the United States for business or pleasure via air and sea POEs for non-VWP Countries (excluding Canada and Mexico): Bulgaria 1.48% Romania 1.81% Average of all countries 1.60% The highest rates are Bhutan 23.98% and Djibouti 26.80%. One important factor that the report doesn't give is the difficulty of getting the visa in first place. Some countries have a much higher visa rejection rate by American consulates than others. Those would be interesting statistics to see. I couldn't find a similar report for Canada, but I'd expect the proportions by country to be similar, but perhaps higher overall for Canada since Canada is slightly easier to enter than the US.

akhatri_aus 11y ago
The correct column is the other one, 'Total overstay rate'. Also those stats for the Romania and Bulgaria are after refusing over 15% of all Visas applied for, which is sort of a filter that prevents the number from being dramatically higher. Under the VWP there would be no such filter. The other country to mention is Poland.
- alister 11y ago
  > The correct column is the other one, 'Total overstay rate'. Yes, you're right. I used the column that indicates "overstayed the visa and are still in the US as far as the DHS knows", whereas the Total Overstay is sum of those still in the US plus those who departed. Here are the correct figures since I can't modify my earlier comment: Bulgaria 1.74% Romania 2.06% Poland 1.49% (since you mentioned it) Average of all non-VWP countries 1.74% The highest rates are Bhutan 24.89% and Djibouti 27.67%. And for comparison: Average of all VWP countries 0.73% The highest rates in VWP countries are Hungary 2.92% and Slovakia 2.36%. > Also those stats for the Romania and Bulgaria are after refusing over 15% of all Visas applied for. I'm interested to know where you got that figure? If anything, I would have thought that US visa refusal rates would be even higher (varying by country of course).

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