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That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of

by danbruc 11y ago

That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of course. Nonetheless it seems a bit strange to me, the country has really not too much to do with this success notwithstanding that, to some extend, it provided the environment that enabled this success. Shouting »SpaceX!« would seem more appropriate to me but probably still feel a bit strange. And last but not least the first thing that I associated with this were the celebrations after the death of Osama bin Laden which I think were pretty inappropriate.

nodesocket 11y ago
I don't understand this German mentality (my heritage is German). It is like German's are ashamed to be German. WWII was a long time ago, it is ok to be patriotic and proud of your collective country.
- danbruc 11y ago
  I came across the slogan »Proud not to be proud.« recently and really like it. I really like Germany and am glad that I can live here. But for me being proud has a lot to do with personally having done something for the thing to be proud of. I have zero stakes in the beautiful landscape, my influence on the society, economy and whatnot is negligible. Why would I be proud of the country? I also think that nation states are probably not the best way forward but that will take us to far now.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Some Americans agree with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIG4-03Gru4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIG4-03Gru4
  - usrusr 11y ago
    Pride in personal achievements has a catch: it's only available to those who actually did achieve something. Those who did not still have a desire for pride and "group pride" (be it national, ethnic, religious, supportership of some sports team or even just membership in some specific profession) fills that gap. As much as i despise patriotic displays, i still think they can offer great value as a lesser evil when even more dangerous group pride identities (e.g. religious or ethnic radicalization) are just waiting to fill the gap for those in need. Not only the american, but also the french or british group identities are much more accessible than for example german (much of national identity defined by difficult relationship with history, newcomers don't share that heritage) or belgian (much of national identity defined by being of either flemish or wallonian ethnicity, newcomers are neither).
- usrusr 11y ago
  Patriotic displays were one of the major tools that enabled WW2. Maybe not as a cause, but certainly as an absolutely required component. We frown upon these things not because of what happened, we frown upon them because of what we don't want to happen again. The past might be long gone, but the future is always right around the corner.
maratd 11y ago
> the country has really not too much to do with this success Yes, it does. The country has a lot to do with it. Particularly our values, culture, etc. that enabled this to be possible here and nowhere else.
- axx 11y ago
  You do realize that other countries have space programs too?
  - nightski 11y ago
    Except this effort was for all intents and purposes entirely financed by the American Government through contracts with SpaceX.
    - danbruc 11y ago
      That comment was quite surly aimed at »[…] here and nowhere else«.
  - adventured 11y ago
    It's an extremely fair point. So is this: now make a list of all the other meaningful space programs and their budgets, it's a really short list. ESA is soon going to have a mere 1/4 the budget of NASA. The rest of the world outside of Russia and China should really be stepping up their space game.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    Yes, but what other country has a private company like SpaceX?
    - pilsetnieks 11y ago
      Really? - Arianespace - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries - Antrix Corporation - COSMOS international - Eurockot Launch Services - International Launch Services - ISC Kosmotras - Sea Launch - Starsem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_service_provider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_service_provider
bwilliams18 11y ago
The US doesn't have the tense history with Nationalism that Germany does. Chanting USA is rather common at national sporting events, in times of triumph and often whenever someone starts the chant.
- noir_lord 11y ago
  > The US doesn't have the tense history with Nationalism that Germany does. Not yet anyway.
mulmen 11y ago
I can understand the distaste for nationalistic displays in Germany and I think it says a lot for the German people that this is considered distasteful. This is a peacetime effort that is likely to improve all of mankind. If you want to criticize the celebratory reaction to killing someone then I will probably agree with you. This is something else. Pride in one's nation and it's achievements is not inherently shameful. Do you believe that nationalistic displays are never appropriate? Why is it ok to celebrate your nation during World Cup but not after a significant technological achievement in peacetime?
- danbruc 11y ago
  I am not going to tell you what to do and what not do, I meant what I wrote quite literally, I felt irritated by those chants because that would never happen here and probably be considered inappropriate. I really can't think of many things that could, would or should cause a similar reaction over here. If half of Germany would work together to single-handedly stop the climate change or something like that, then I would say it is time to pad our shoulders, but besides that I can't think of much. And even if we shout »Germany!« when we win a soccer match, we - or at least that is the case for me - mean the team, not the country as a whole.
  - mentando 11y ago
    I just realized this as well. We really do chant for the team, not the country.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- hencq 11y ago
  It's not just Germany by the way. I think this applies in most of Europe where patriotism is closely linked with nationalism because of our history. For example, in the UK showing an English flag is immediately associated with the BNP. In Holland displaying the flag outside of national holidays is associated with far-right wing parties as well. Of course none of this applies when it comes to international football matches. At the same time I think most Europeans realize this doesn't apply in the US, yet many people's initial reaction would be one of (mild) discomfort. As a European living in the US (and loving the country and the people) I'm still often equal parts amazed and amused by the flag waving and USA chanting.
BurningFrog 11y ago
What would a German crowd have chanted or sang to celebrate something like this?
- danbruc 11y ago
  Yeeeaaaahhhhh! Woooooo! Exactly the same minus the USA bit.
stcredzero 11y ago
That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of course. My first thought is, then what if people around the world started to care about spaceflight to the same degree they pay attention to the World Cup? But considering the broad geopolitical implications tied up in spaceflight and ballistic missile technology, this does become weird and problematic in just a few steps, doesn't it? Hopefully, from here on out, all of the jingoism will just be noise, and all of the major wars will be, at worst, cold.
bluthru 11y ago
>the celebrations after the death of Osama bin Laden which I think were pretty inappropriate. Osama Bin Laden doesn't deserve any civil person's remorse. He helped orchestrate the murder of 3000 civilians. Give no pause to people who have absolutely no respect for the civilized world and cannot be reasoned with. The world will not have peace as long as religious extremists exist. Osama Bin Laden's existence would have only brought more senseless violence.
burfog 11y ago
Be different. Fly a German flag from a pole in your front yard. Really! People here in the USA do it sometimes. (or go European, or both if you want to treat Germany like Americans treat states) Find something good in the news and celebrate it. I checked the news today. OK, maybe today isn't a great day for Germany, because the best I found was this: http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from-13-metal-rings http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from... Uh, well, it's something. Celebrate it. Germany! Germany! Germany! Be sure to also check the French and Russian news in case a bit of Schadenfreude is called for. When you find something suitable, wave your flag and say: Germany! Germany! Germany!

by danbruc 11y ago

nodesocket 11y ago

I don't understand this German mentality (my heritage is German). It is like German's are ashamed to be German. WWII was a long time ago, it is ok to be patriotic and proud of your collective country.

danbruc 11y ago
I came across the slogan »Proud not to be proud.« recently and really like it. I really like Germany and am glad that I can live here. But for me being proud has a lot to do with personally having done something for the thing to be proud of. I have zero stakes in the beautiful landscape, my influence on the society, economy and whatnot is negligible. Why would I be proud of the country? I also think that nation states are probably not the best way forward but that will take us to far now.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Some Americans agree with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIG4-03Gru4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIG4-03Gru4
- usrusr 11y ago
  Pride in personal achievements has a catch: it's only available to those who actually did achieve something. Those who did not still have a desire for pride and "group pride" (be it national, ethnic, religious, supportership of some sports team or even just membership in some specific profession) fills that gap. As much as i despise patriotic displays, i still think they can offer great value as a lesser evil when even more dangerous group pride identities (e.g. religious or ethnic radicalization) are just waiting to fill the gap for those in need. Not only the american, but also the french or british group identities are much more accessible than for example german (much of national identity defined by difficult relationship with history, newcomers don't share that heritage) or belgian (much of national identity defined by being of either flemish or wallonian ethnicity, newcomers are neither).
usrusr 11y ago
Patriotic displays were one of the major tools that enabled WW2. Maybe not as a cause, but certainly as an absolutely required component. We frown upon these things not because of what happened, we frown upon them because of what we don't want to happen again. The past might be long gone, but the future is always right around the corner.

maratd 11y ago

> the country has really not too much to do with this success Yes, it does. The country has a lot to do with it. Particularly our values, culture, etc. that enabled this to be possible here and nowhere else.

axx 11y ago
You do realize that other countries have space programs too?
- nightski 11y ago
  Except this effort was for all intents and purposes entirely financed by the American Government through contracts with SpaceX.
  - danbruc 11y ago
    That comment was quite surly aimed at »[…] here and nowhere else«.
- adventured 11y ago
  It's an extremely fair point. So is this: now make a list of all the other meaningful space programs and their budgets, it's a really short list. ESA is soon going to have a mere 1/4 the budget of NASA. The rest of the world outside of Russia and China should really be stepping up their space game.
- jonknee 11y ago
  Yes, but what other country has a private company like SpaceX?
  - pilsetnieks 11y ago
    Really? - Arianespace - Mitsubishi Heavy Industries - Antrix Corporation - COSMOS international - Eurockot Launch Services - International Launch Services - ISC Kosmotras - Sea Launch - Starsem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_service_provider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_service_provider

bwilliams18 11y ago

The US doesn't have the tense history with Nationalism that Germany does. Chanting USA is rather common at national sporting events, in times of triumph and often whenever someone starts the chant.

noir_lord 11y ago
> The US doesn't have the tense history with Nationalism that Germany does. Not yet anyway.

mulmen 11y ago

I can understand the distaste for nationalistic displays in Germany and I think it says a lot for the German people that this is considered distasteful. This is a peacetime effort that is likely to improve all of mankind. If you want to criticize the celebratory reaction to killing someone then I will probably agree with you. This is something else. Pride in one's nation and it's achievements is not inherently shameful. Do you believe that nationalistic displays are never appropriate? Why is it ok to celebrate your nation during World Cup but not after a significant technological achievement in peacetime?

danbruc 11y ago
I am not going to tell you what to do and what not do, I meant what I wrote quite literally, I felt irritated by those chants because that would never happen here and probably be considered inappropriate. I really can't think of many things that could, would or should cause a similar reaction over here. If half of Germany would work together to single-handedly stop the climate change or something like that, then I would say it is time to pad our shoulders, but besides that I can't think of much. And even if we shout »Germany!« when we win a soccer match, we - or at least that is the case for me - mean the team, not the country as a whole.
- mentando 11y ago
  I just realized this as well. We really do chant for the team, not the country.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hencq 11y ago
It's not just Germany by the way. I think this applies in most of Europe where patriotism is closely linked with nationalism because of our history. For example, in the UK showing an English flag is immediately associated with the BNP. In Holland displaying the flag outside of national holidays is associated with far-right wing parties as well. Of course none of this applies when it comes to international football matches. At the same time I think most Europeans realize this doesn't apply in the US, yet many people's initial reaction would be one of (mild) discomfort. As a European living in the US (and loving the country and the people) I'm still often equal parts amazed and amused by the flag waving and USA chanting.

BurningFrog 11y ago

What would a German crowd have chanted or sang to celebrate something like this?

danbruc 11y ago
Yeeeaaaahhhhh! Woooooo! Exactly the same minus the USA bit.

stcredzero 11y ago

That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of course. My first thought is, then what if people around the world started to care about spaceflight to the same degree they pay attention to the World Cup? But considering the broad geopolitical implications tied up in spaceflight and ballistic missile technology, this does become weird and problematic in just a few steps, doesn't it? Hopefully, from here on out, all of the jingoism will just be noise, and all of the major wars will be, at worst, cold.

bluthru 11y ago

>the celebrations after the death of Osama bin Laden which I think were pretty inappropriate. Osama Bin Laden doesn't deserve any civil person's remorse. He helped orchestrate the murder of 3000 civilians. Give no pause to people who have absolutely no respect for the civilized world and cannot be reasoned with. The world will not have peace as long as religious extremists exist. Osama Bin Laden's existence would have only brought more senseless violence.

burfog 11y ago

Be different. Fly a German flag from a pole in your front yard. Really! People here in the USA do it sometimes. (or go European, or both if you want to treat Germany like Americans treat states) Find something good in the news and celebrate it. I checked the news today. OK, maybe today isn't a great day for Germany, because the best I found was this: http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from-13-metal-rings http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from... Uh, well, it's something. Celebrate it. Germany! Germany! Germany! Be sure to also check the French and Russian news in case a bit of Schadenfreude is called for. When you find something suitable, wave your flag and say: Germany! Germany! Germany!