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Out of curiosity, what makes "What to do when a Chinese startup clones your website?" different from "What to do when another startup clones your website?" Is i

Out of curiosity, what makes "What to do when a Chinese startup clones your website?" different from "What to do when another startup clones your website?" Is it just a matter of legal jurisdiction? Or is there some other element here that makes it more nefarious?

jzwinck 11y ago
When a Chinese group does it, you can't sue them. You can't compel their ISP to block them. You can't file a patent or trademark or any other protection for your prior art where it matters. And in many cases, you can't even talk to them, because unlike many programmers from non-English speaking countries, they may really not know English, and/or there may be no intersection in the communication services that you and they are using. There aren't a lot of other countries that share all those difficult aspects yet still have plenty of capable programmers.
- kweks 11y ago
  Chinese customs are very proactive on brand defence. You simply need to have your trademark registered with them. http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/10/12/how-to-protect-against-counterfeiting-register-your-china-trademark-with-china-customs/#51489d2310bf http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/10/12/how-to-prot...
  - 6stringmerc 11y ago
    I would believe you but their copycat car industry is a direct refutation of such "proactive brand defence" you claim exists.
    - kweks 11y ago
      You're free to believe your hunches. The reality is different. We've manufactured and exported brand-name products from China for over 30 years. In our experience, when a trademark is registered, Chinese customs is very proactive in seizing / destroying infringing property. The domestic market is definitely another story, but there are controls in place for the export market. The onus is on the brand owner to register their trademark - no different to registering a mark in any other jurisdiction. Legitimate business has been conducted with China for centuries, and China has every reason to defend foreign brands in order to protect its manufacturing industry.
      - studentrob 11y ago
        > The domestic market is definitely another story, but there are controls in place for the export market. I believe the domestic market is what's at stake for the OP. haogegebisai is Chinese for "good older brother tournament" and that site is all in Chinese
        bflesch 11y ago
        Yes, we wouldn't want to give it away without a fight. Chinese people are crazy for gambling, and our business is on the right side of a very, very fine line between gambling and skill-based gaming. Thanks for the translation! I thought the gege was standing for GG (good game), a part of eSports slang. For the rest my Chinese is too rusty :/
        studentrob 11y ago
        Oh you might be right about it being slang. My Chinese isn't great. I just like to pretend it is on the internet haha! Their website uses the characters 好哥哥 (haogege) and I don't see 比赛 (bisai) written anywhere. Maybe they changed it after getting the domain.
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        You've got to know the Chinese trademark office exists, and you have to do it before your Chinese competitor does. There is a cottage industry in China of Chinese companies squatting in popular western trade marks via the trademark office. If the publicity is extra bad, you might get relief from the government, but there is no legal basis for that relief. (Incidentally, their was an article yesterday in Chinese investment firms taking well known international brands and using the name with a Chinese city pretended, like Shenzhen Blackrock...). A small startup usually won't register trademarks in markets they don't operate in. This wasn't a problem before since those markets weren't interested anyways. But given the whole Internet industry in China is basically built around shanzhai-style copying (much safer than doing original design and developing original IP), we are gong to see a lot more of is in the future.
      - 11y ago
  - pfarnsworth 11y ago
    "simply" is the key word here.
    - kweks 11y ago
      Just as 'simply' as you'd need to register a US trademark in Europe, for example. Just because you have a mark registered in the US, doesn't mean China (or any other jurisdiction) will magically know about it. There are solutions and structures in place - proper business practices dictate that you inform yourself and react appropriately.
      - bflesch 11y ago
        We've registered the trademark everywhere, but the actual process takes so long we haven't heard back from the agency yet. And it only covers our brand name and logo, which is only infringed on in a very minor way. Our brand isn't mentioned either in the marketing copy nor in the sourcecode.
- lucaspiller 11y ago
  It's not China specific though, surely it would be the same in pretty much any non-English speaking country? What happens if a company in Romania/Bulgaria/Nigeria/Chile clones your US startup? Even in terms of legal jurisdictions if a company in Australia clones it, and hosts and develops everything in Australia, you may need to hire an Australian legal team to fight it.
  - DrJokepu 11y ago
    Not sure about Nigeria but you can absolutely seek legal recourse in Romania, Bulgaria or Chile with the aid of a local, English-speaking lawyer. All of these countries have well developed legal systems.
    - tlogan 11y ago
      Ok - great. A competitor can open and register their company in Panama. Then what?
      - DrJokepu 11y ago
        If they conduct business in the United States, it may be possible to seek legal recourse in the United States.
  - ejanus 11y ago
    Nigeria is an English speaking(not native) country. Her legal system is modeled after that of England. And you can sue anybody, it is left for court to decide if your case has merit.
seanmcdirmid 11y ago
The Chinese Internet/tech industry is basically used to, even addicted to, copying. It's in the culture from the VCs on down. When given task X, the designers are told just to find something decent abroad to copy. So the point is, a Chinese startup is much more likely to copy your website than a Nigerian, Russian, Romanian, Vietnamese, etc... startup.

jzwinck 11y ago

When a Chinese group does it, you can't sue them. You can't compel their ISP to block them. You can't file a patent or trademark or any other protection for your prior art where it matters. And in many cases, you can't even talk to them, because unlike many programmers from non-English speaking countries, they may really not know English, and/or there may be no intersection in the communication services that you and they are using. There aren't a lot of other countries that share all those difficult aspects yet still have plenty of capable programmers.

kweks 11y ago
Chinese customs are very proactive on brand defence. You simply need to have your trademark registered with them. http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/10/12/how-to-protect-against-counterfeiting-register-your-china-trademark-with-china-customs/#51489d2310bf http://www.forbes.com/sites/danharris/2015/10/12/how-to-prot...
- 6stringmerc 11y ago
  I would believe you but their copycat car industry is a direct refutation of such "proactive brand defence" you claim exists.
  - kweks 11y ago
    You're free to believe your hunches. The reality is different. We've manufactured and exported brand-name products from China for over 30 years. In our experience, when a trademark is registered, Chinese customs is very proactive in seizing / destroying infringing property. The domestic market is definitely another story, but there are controls in place for the export market. The onus is on the brand owner to register their trademark - no different to registering a mark in any other jurisdiction. Legitimate business has been conducted with China for centuries, and China has every reason to defend foreign brands in order to protect its manufacturing industry.
    - studentrob 11y ago
      > The domestic market is definitely another story, but there are controls in place for the export market. I believe the domestic market is what's at stake for the OP. haogegebisai is Chinese for "good older brother tournament" and that site is all in Chinese
      - bflesch 11y ago
        Yes, we wouldn't want to give it away without a fight. Chinese people are crazy for gambling, and our business is on the right side of a very, very fine line between gambling and skill-based gaming. Thanks for the translation! I thought the gege was standing for GG (good game), a part of eSports slang. For the rest my Chinese is too rusty :/
        studentrob 11y ago
        Oh you might be right about it being slang. My Chinese isn't great. I just like to pretend it is on the internet haha! Their website uses the characters 好哥哥 (haogege) and I don't see 比赛 (bisai) written anywhere. Maybe they changed it after getting the domain.
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      You've got to know the Chinese trademark office exists, and you have to do it before your Chinese competitor does. There is a cottage industry in China of Chinese companies squatting in popular western trade marks via the trademark office. If the publicity is extra bad, you might get relief from the government, but there is no legal basis for that relief. (Incidentally, their was an article yesterday in Chinese investment firms taking well known international brands and using the name with a Chinese city pretended, like Shenzhen Blackrock...). A small startup usually won't register trademarks in markets they don't operate in. This wasn't a problem before since those markets weren't interested anyways. But given the whole Internet industry in China is basically built around shanzhai-style copying (much safer than doing original design and developing original IP), we are gong to see a lot more of is in the future.
    - 11y ago
- pfarnsworth 11y ago
  "simply" is the key word here.
  - kweks 11y ago
    Just as 'simply' as you'd need to register a US trademark in Europe, for example. Just because you have a mark registered in the US, doesn't mean China (or any other jurisdiction) will magically know about it. There are solutions and structures in place - proper business practices dictate that you inform yourself and react appropriately.
    - bflesch 11y ago
      We've registered the trademark everywhere, but the actual process takes so long we haven't heard back from the agency yet. And it only covers our brand name and logo, which is only infringed on in a very minor way. Our brand isn't mentioned either in the marketing copy nor in the sourcecode.
lucaspiller 11y ago
It's not China specific though, surely it would be the same in pretty much any non-English speaking country? What happens if a company in Romania/Bulgaria/Nigeria/Chile clones your US startup? Even in terms of legal jurisdictions if a company in Australia clones it, and hosts and develops everything in Australia, you may need to hire an Australian legal team to fight it.
- DrJokepu 11y ago
  Not sure about Nigeria but you can absolutely seek legal recourse in Romania, Bulgaria or Chile with the aid of a local, English-speaking lawyer. All of these countries have well developed legal systems.
  - tlogan 11y ago
    Ok - great. A competitor can open and register their company in Panama. Then what?
    - DrJokepu 11y ago
      If they conduct business in the United States, it may be possible to seek legal recourse in the United States.
- ejanus 11y ago
  Nigeria is an English speaking(not native) country. Her legal system is modeled after that of England. And you can sue anybody, it is left for court to decide if your case has merit.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago

The Chinese Internet/tech industry is basically used to, even addicted to, copying. It's in the culture from the VCs on down. When given task X, the designers are told just to find something decent abroad to copy. So the point is, a Chinese startup is much more likely to copy your website than a Nigerian, Russian, Romanian, Vietnamese, etc... startup.