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If they give you an IQ test or similar, run. That's interesting; it conflicts with one of the few pieces of evidence I have about successful correlation in rec

If they give you an IQ test or similar, run. That's interesting; it conflicts with one of the few pieces of evidence I have about successful correlation in recruitment. I don't have the study to hand, but I'm sure its conclusions were that people who do well at IQ tests (although they might have been more general intelligence tests rather than specifically IQ tests) tend to make better technical employees (or indeed, almost any kind of employee), and that's it's one of the few actually reliable indicators. As a strong rule of thumb, smart people are better at technical jobs. What's the thinking behind taking it as a sign of a bad employer?

Overtonwindow 11y ago
It's possible they are referring to these tests that companies are giving now in order to weed out certain types of people. They're not exactly IQ test, but rather tests for cultural fit. They can be quite good at weeding out minorities, women, older people, and people with disabilities.
talmand 11y ago
Well, I believe IQ tests during an interview process is illegal in the US. Anyway, I would say it's not necessarily a good way to consider a candidate as the results can be subjective and doesn't indicate what to do if the best coder in the area sucks at taking tests while under pressure.
- johansch 11y ago
  > as the results can be subjective As opposed to all the other completely objective ways of evaluating a candidate?
  - talmand 11y ago
    Good point, I guess I should have said it's a subjective result that too many treat as if it were an objective pass/fail result.
    - johansch 11y ago
      I dunno, I think this would be self-regulating. By the way, in Europe very few companies do IQ tests of employees. However.. the thought that it might be illegal to qualify potential employees based on IQ tests would simply not occur to us. I guess you guys in the US have a more, eh, colorful history for good and bad.
      - talmand 11y ago
        Yes indeed, many used them in the past to deny minorities jobs.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > Well, I believe IQ tests during an interview process is illegal in the US. Only if they can't show it's materially related to the ability to do the job. When I first started working for the IBM LTC, IBM had an online aptitude test as part of their application. The results directly determined both whether you got hired and how much you got paid.
ghaff 11y ago
The short answer is probably but not definitely, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/ There is pretty clear relationship between, say, SAT scores and measured performance in college but that correlation is easier to accept intuitively. (Given that college GPA depends to a large degree on performance on tests.)
- bpchaps 11y ago
  According to a psych test research program, I have a very high IQ. Not sure what it is until the program's over, but apparently I beat all of the doctors and grad students involved. Not bragging, just making some anecdata. That said, apparently I'm very difficult to manage. When managed properly, though, I do really good work (so I'm told). When managed badly, it's a completely different story - and usually at places that require IQ tests ;). All an IQ test does is gives you a reason NOT to hire someone. Why not work on building the social skills required to identify smart candidates if you're trying to hire smart candidates?
  - gyardley 11y ago
    Given how psychological experiments work, what's more likely - that you have a higher IQ than everyone else involved in the program, or that one of the things they're studying is the effect of believing you have a higher IQ than everyone else involved in the program?
    - bpchaps 11y ago
      That's definitely a possibility. :)
- twunde 11y ago
  That relationship may not be as strong as you think and it certainly doesn't hold true for all standardized tests. LSATS often are negatively correlated to grades (which surprised my professor when he was the dean of the law school).
zeemonkee3 11y ago
Hypothetical situation. Let's say you're an experienced developer. You have an impressive work record, open source contributions, and ace the technical interviews. Then your potential employer asks you to take an IQ test. Legality aside (and it may be framed as a "general aptitude test" or somesuch), this may be very insulting to some people, who feel their contributions and achievements should stand on their own without bullshit tests. It signals to them "we don't care what you've done, and you can prove you can do, or your years of experience or education, you getting the job depends on an arbitrary test we're going to throw at you". You're not going to be treated as an individual, but rather a set of points on a score sheet. Now you may be right or wrong as to whether these tests are indicative of ability, but for a lot of applicants they would be a red flag.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  In my opinion, what you've done there is create a straw man. The original assertion was that an IQ test is a reason to run. What you've done is turn that into something else entirely, where it quite clearly is a bad sign. I believe that your hypothetical situation isn't addressing the original simple assertion. The original assertion was not "If you've done very well at a series of interviews and proved your ability already, and then they want to give you an IQ test, run."
  - zeemonkee3 11y ago
    So your argument is that IQ tests are only good in lieu of experience/proven ability?
    - EliRivers 11y ago
      My argument is that you presented an invalid straw man argument.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    How about "you get an IQ test instead of a series of interviews and a chance to prove your ability"
bpchaps 11y ago
Experience, mostly. I have a high IQ (so I'm told) and when I work at companies like these, they're managed like absolute hell. Metrics for miles and using technology rather than proper management to manage people. Building social skills to identify intelligence is much more effective and significantly more personal. Yes, it can be gamed, but so can intelligence tests. The last one I took had 50% questions similar to, "If you rotate this paper 120 degrees and flip it, where does the dot end?" You bet your ass I took that test with a piece of paper in hand.
- bmh100 11y ago
  So you cheated on an IQ test? How did the test administrator not catch you or worse, allow you to do this?
  - f0rfun 11y ago
    Because sometimes they excuse themselves after leaving you with the test script. Some don't bother sitting through with you the entire session, especially if he or she is just a HR personnel and is simply tasked to administer the test.
  - bpchaps 11y ago
    It was at home and during a time when I was more interested in learning to interview than getting hired. Also, having legit ADHD, makes those sorts of tests utter hell, especially considering it was timed and that I have a comical lack of spatial intelligence. I'm not saying what I did was right, just that there was some justification to it.
    - Aeolun 11y ago
      Well, if they leave you at home to do the test (especially timed). They must expect you to use any means at your disposal to solve it. It's likely that some people would still not be able to do it.
harperlee 11y ago
I've read from tokenadult (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3807363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3807363) that the IQ tests are indeed one of the few reliable tests that you can use.

Overtonwindow 11y ago

It's possible they are referring to these tests that companies are giving now in order to weed out certain types of people. They're not exactly IQ test, but rather tests for cultural fit. They can be quite good at weeding out minorities, women, older people, and people with disabilities.

talmand 11y ago

Well, I believe IQ tests during an interview process is illegal in the US. Anyway, I would say it's not necessarily a good way to consider a candidate as the results can be subjective and doesn't indicate what to do if the best coder in the area sucks at taking tests while under pressure.

johansch 11y ago
> as the results can be subjective As opposed to all the other completely objective ways of evaluating a candidate?
- talmand 11y ago
  Good point, I guess I should have said it's a subjective result that too many treat as if it were an objective pass/fail result.
  - johansch 11y ago
    I dunno, I think this would be self-regulating. By the way, in Europe very few companies do IQ tests of employees. However.. the thought that it might be illegal to qualify potential employees based on IQ tests would simply not occur to us. I guess you guys in the US have a more, eh, colorful history for good and bad.
    - talmand 11y ago
      Yes indeed, many used them in the past to deny minorities jobs.
JoshTriplett 11y ago
> Well, I believe IQ tests during an interview process is illegal in the US. Only if they can't show it's materially related to the ability to do the job. When I first started working for the IBM LTC, IBM had an online aptitude test as part of their application. The results directly determined both whether you got hired and how much you got paid.

ghaff 11y ago

The short answer is probably but not definitely, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/ There is pretty clear relationship between, say, SAT scores and measured performance in college but that correlation is easier to accept intuitively. (Given that college GPA depends to a large degree on performance on tests.)

bpchaps 11y ago
According to a psych test research program, I have a very high IQ. Not sure what it is until the program's over, but apparently I beat all of the doctors and grad students involved. Not bragging, just making some anecdata. That said, apparently I'm very difficult to manage. When managed properly, though, I do really good work (so I'm told). When managed badly, it's a completely different story - and usually at places that require IQ tests ;). All an IQ test does is gives you a reason NOT to hire someone. Why not work on building the social skills required to identify smart candidates if you're trying to hire smart candidates?
- gyardley 11y ago
  Given how psychological experiments work, what's more likely - that you have a higher IQ than everyone else involved in the program, or that one of the things they're studying is the effect of believing you have a higher IQ than everyone else involved in the program?
  - bpchaps 11y ago
    That's definitely a possibility. :)
twunde 11y ago
That relationship may not be as strong as you think and it certainly doesn't hold true for all standardized tests. LSATS often are negatively correlated to grades (which surprised my professor when he was the dean of the law school).

zeemonkee3 11y ago

Hypothetical situation. Let's say you're an experienced developer. You have an impressive work record, open source contributions, and ace the technical interviews. Then your potential employer asks you to take an IQ test. Legality aside (and it may be framed as a "general aptitude test" or somesuch), this may be very insulting to some people, who feel their contributions and achievements should stand on their own without bullshit tests. It signals to them "we don't care what you've done, and you can prove you can do, or your years of experience or education, you getting the job depends on an arbitrary test we're going to throw at you". You're not going to be treated as an individual, but rather a set of points on a score sheet. Now you may be right or wrong as to whether these tests are indicative of ability, but for a lot of applicants they would be a red flag.

EliRivers 11y ago
In my opinion, what you've done there is create a straw man. The original assertion was that an IQ test is a reason to run. What you've done is turn that into something else entirely, where it quite clearly is a bad sign. I believe that your hypothetical situation isn't addressing the original simple assertion. The original assertion was not "If you've done very well at a series of interviews and proved your ability already, and then they want to give you an IQ test, run."
- zeemonkee3 11y ago
  So your argument is that IQ tests are only good in lieu of experience/proven ability?
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    My argument is that you presented an invalid straw man argument.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  How about "you get an IQ test instead of a series of interviews and a chance to prove your ability"

bpchaps 11y ago

Experience, mostly. I have a high IQ (so I'm told) and when I work at companies like these, they're managed like absolute hell. Metrics for miles and using technology rather than proper management to manage people. Building social skills to identify intelligence is much more effective and significantly more personal. Yes, it can be gamed, but so can intelligence tests. The last one I took had 50% questions similar to, "If you rotate this paper 120 degrees and flip it, where does the dot end?" You bet your ass I took that test with a piece of paper in hand.

bmh100 11y ago
So you cheated on an IQ test? How did the test administrator not catch you or worse, allow you to do this?
- f0rfun 11y ago
  Because sometimes they excuse themselves after leaving you with the test script. Some don't bother sitting through with you the entire session, especially if he or she is just a HR personnel and is simply tasked to administer the test.
- bpchaps 11y ago
  It was at home and during a time when I was more interested in learning to interview than getting hired. Also, having legit ADHD, makes those sorts of tests utter hell, especially considering it was timed and that I have a comical lack of spatial intelligence. I'm not saying what I did was right, just that there was some justification to it.
  - Aeolun 11y ago
    Well, if they leave you at home to do the test (especially timed). They must expect you to use any means at your disposal to solve it. It's likely that some people would still not be able to do it.

harperlee 11y ago

I've read from tokenadult (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3807363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3807363) that the IQ tests are indeed one of the few reliable tests that you can use.